We don't always agree at Winds of Change. Lately, one of the flashpoints has been France - what's really going on, and what to do about it.
It's a Battle Royale in the comments section of Armed Liberal's "France" post, so come on down and get in the ring! The debate is intense, a bet has been thrown down... and the heat is on. Who will take the prize at "The Dance in France", and who will be left "Embarassed in Paris?" Click here and see for yourselves!
Meanwhile, if you're interested in following the whole discussion, here's the chronology by Round (I'll keep this updated):
- JAN. 24: "The Evil That Was France." (Trent Telenko). Details the French power grab at the E.U., NATO maneuverings, and U.N. activities, with some good links to the updates at "Innocents Abroad." An integrated strategy for France? Quite possibly.
- JAN. 24: "LePennistan? More Like Le Suicide Diplomatique" (Joe Katzman). You say "evil," I say "screw up the size of Waterworld". This prompts a debate with Trent that spills into the post's "Updates" section at the bottom.
- JAN. 30 "La France et Le Suicide Diplomatique II" (Joe Katzman). And so it begins... the origins and implicit threats within the famous "New Europe 8" letter.
- JAN. 31: "The Blogosphere and The War In Europe" (Joe Katzman). Displeased at the blogosphere's current zeitgeist, Joe comes out swinging. Europe deserves criticism and firm action - but it needs to be responsible criticism, not hysteria or slurs. Here's what we must do, and what role the blogosphere can play.
- FEB. 6: "The Thing That Was France Revisited" (Trent Telenko). France's problem is deep, and existential. Here's what's driving them, and why he stands by his statements in Round 1.
- FEB. 7: "France" (Armed Liberal). A.L. has some background in this subject. He explains where he thinks France is coming from, and why he believes Trent's approach and analysis (and to some extent, Vodkapundit and Instapundit's too) are in error.
- FEB. 10: In response to the war in the comments section of "France," Armed Liberal returns with a sequel: "France^2". From France's recent actions, to life in the 80s, to the proper role of morality in politics, this one covers a lot of ground. Trent?
- Feb. 10: We have some interesting Readings for you on the subject. Further suggestions accepted.
- FEB 16: Trent returns from his trip, and responds with "The Evil That Was France, Again" He discusses the dangers of "valueless national interest" politics, and brings other blogs into the discussion to both adduce evidence and draw on commonalities supporting his point of view.
- FEB. 17: Armed Liberal comes right back with "France^3". He says they have a very different vision of what the world ought to be, and believes Trent is reading more into the situation than is there. The question is, will our vision win out?
Y'all ought to throw Tom Friedman's article about putting India onto the UNSC and France off of it into the mixer also. Friedman's theme is that France is suffering from the final effects of post colonial/post imperial decline and hasn't yet recognized its natural position in the world yet. In that sense, if France can't discern its own role, what makes anybody sure that we (the US) should be more perceptive than they are?
Friedman's article is at http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/09/opinion/09FRIE.html; I got it via Instapundit:
But France, as they say in kindergarten, does not play well with others. If you line up against Saddam you're just one of the gang. If you hold out against America, you're unique. "France, it seems, would rather be more important in a world of chaos than less important in a world of order," says the foreign policy expert Michael Mandelbaum, author of "The Ideas That Conquered the World."
I'll take that as agreement with my basic point...
A.L.
Tom:
The same could be said of Britian. I wasn't too impressed with their performance in Sierra Leone. Also maybe the British were luckier that their shedding of the empire was far less traumatic and bloody than the French.
In any case, it's quite clear that the French will be hammered really hard in the post Iraqi Ba'ath period. What worries me will the French learn and reform themselves or will become bitter and revenge seeking?
xavier
I honestly don't think the French hold a grudge very long, even against the Algerian thug-regime, unless you are occupying two provinces or more of Metropolitan France.
excuse my "provinces", since Bonaparte they've been called "departmentes"
Tom, that article and others are provided in the very next post on Readings. The Daily Telegraph article may be even better, and of course there's always Christopher Hitchens.
See:
http://windsofchange.net/archives/003035.html
The French are to foreign policy as the British are to cooking!
So, we need minor changes to the world of HELL:
The British (who boil EVERYTHING) are of course the cooks. The Germans can still be the overbearing police, and the Swiss the stone-handed lovers. The Italians get to run the trains as far off schedule as they can get them. And the French, the rascally, ignorant French get to run the U.N.
Over here we're debating the merits of dissolving NATO.
I seem to be one of the few people who thinks that's an extraordinarily bad idea.
Dean,
On which side of the pond might you be? And who is we?
I can't help but wonder if the French are really just enjoying all this new-found attention. They haven't had this much publicity since they dropped nukes near Tahiti.
Dean, the problem is that France is trying to cause NATO to dissolve. With Belgian and German help they just might succeed.
Of course, one way out of it is to dissolve it and then reconstitute it minus France, Germany, and Belgium.
the brits deep fry rather than boil everything. they have been known to deep-fry pizza.
Like we Americans don't deep-fry turkeys and Snickers bars in lieu of cutting to the chase and just slitting our own throats? Maybe we oughta deep-fry NATO and see what rises to the surface of the fryer. Eesh.
I'm French. I think it's better to say it first this way you won't loose any time by reading what I’ve got to say.
I'm sure you are all wondering why the French can oppose their selves against the American government’s decision of war in Iraq....
First, let me tell you that this attitude isn't taking place just in France, and I know it because I lived I lived in many countries (South America, northern America, Europe and even in the United States) and many people from those continents... should I say a large majority are against that war. I lived in the USA and my friends there told me that even in your country there are more and more people asking for peace. In France for what we know, Iraq isn’t as armed as the us government says. we are way more concerned by north corea. We are very concerned by the people living in Iraq that would like saddam Hussein to leave, but they are also hoping to do not receive any american bombs on their family's homes. So yes we rather like a more or less peaceful ending for this crisis. Let me teach you that during the gulf war, it has been inspectors of the UN that have been able to dissemble a big part of Iraq’s massive destruction weapons and not the American army anyway. So why can't you accept that the blue helmets (the UN forces) get there and bodyguard the inspectors of the UN for a full check up supported by a pacific army.
Secondly, we, western Europeans, don't think that the American government is going to do something different in Iraq after the war than in Afghanistan or in any country he has ever fought against during the last 4 decades, which means an other dictator controlling the country, friendly to the USA’s government at the beginning, or a destroyed country. You suffer from Ben laden. Don’t you ever wonder who gave him its first weapon?
You think our country is corrupted…. For what I know there’s no worst economical scandals than the one from Enron, the Anderson cabinet that took place in your great USA
Our president isn’t the best we could hope for. But I am more than happy to see what I’ve got when I see your dumb ass president that doesn’t even have the intelligence for eating a bretzel correctly.
You think our medias are obsolete or corrupted…. Unlike yours, our medias have their hands untied and are allowed to write above any subject concerning what ever they want. And they don’t watch for economical impacts every time they write an article. It is world widely known that France as the greatest liberty concerning the press. You are allowed to say anything if it’s not insulting someone else. This why we are allowed to say our president is corrupted when yours is a hundred time more and you don’t say nothing.
Concerning your media….. The first page of the New York post entitled “SACRIFICE”; I am pleased to remind you that during the 18 century you were really pleased to receive from France money, powder boats officers of the French army and many other things. Supplies that definitively made your independence possible. So please, don’t play smart with us. I think it was Eisenhower who said before the operation overlord: “Lafayette nous voila!”
In France, unlike in the USA, even if we are looking for economical developement we are not ready to give up on education or culture for money. I never saw such uneducated people than in the USA (example: I asked an American studying in high school where Argentina is on a world map. He pointed at the Philippines. Even you who read me could laugh about it I’m sure. But if you ask me I agree in giving you some more). I’m sure you will be pleased to know that; in Cuba; and Ireland close to your country that you made so poor because of your embargo (for the one who didn’t knew it) people are a thousand times more educated than you are for almost nothing.
In France school is an obligation. And your mum, as good as she can be in making fat cookies, can’t teach you maths. Maybe that’s why we can talk your language when 99% of Americans are completely unable to pronounce even one word in French.
Concerning health, …., there is nothing to say. Americans are the fattiest people in the world. You don’t have social security unlike us. So it is more or less. “Make money, a lot of money, by the way forget your soul or die like a dog in the street.” Because when you have very few money you can’t afford any of the treatments that are needed in order to hope to be cured from a cancer. In France you don’t live or die from a cancer whether you are rich or poor. That’s what we call freedom. A word you probably misunderstand.
As a conclusion I would like to talk a little bit about your moral. Which by the way looks like the customs of the Christians from an other century, a dark one in fact. Your puritan morality is against evolution. I don’t give a damn if my president had his dick in every women’s mouth of the presidential bureau of the Elysée. You are diving into obscurantism. And the worst part concerning this, it’s that the violence you express in your media, your movies and all the shit you send us across the ocean are against what you say. Donald Rumsfeld thinks that we are old and tired. Teach him that Spain for example, has to thanks France and Germany for the development she has known for the last 15 years. And Aznar, their president, should listen to his people like Berlusconi or like Blair or like many other….they will pay it sooner or later.
Don’t ask for “why do so many people hate us”, the answer is following:
The world is tired of America’s politic of interest. The world is tired to see the USA not giving any interest for the environment; the world is tired to see the American giving birth to the worst dictators for the 4 last decades, like in South America for example. The world is tired of your arrogance.
Thanks for reading me. If you find this outrageous, I wrote it after reading the nonsense, the bullshit, and the stupidities I found in your forums and Medias.
to a french student:
There is an easy way out of this mess: let superior French diplomacy instal a representative democratic government in Baghdad. You gentlemen have had 12 years to do the job. Time is about up.
to a french student:
France has more freedom of the press than the US? Even though 3 out of 6 French TV channels are state owned? It's impressive that they still manage to keep a free hand. And I'm not sure how laws making it illegal to insult the French flag or the Marsellaise translates into "more freedom of speech", but I don't know how to speak French. (I don't feel the need to learn the language of a minor country like France.) Keep studying!
France doesn't even have absolute freedom of speech. There are restrictions on the form and content of speech. I've read you can be arrested and fined for insulting Jacques Chirac. Not to mention the bizarre restrictions on foreign words. Perhaps it is time to clean out your closet.
First, I'm french... My english is not so good, but I'm gonna make some efforts to write in your language.
Here's my profile :
- I hate 15% of french people who voted for a nazi b*stard last year.
- I don't want to think an individual is formated according to the country he live in. Many french men and women are bloody stupid and so is a part of american people. If you think someone is a crap because he's american, french, iraqi, muslim, christian or jew, then you're just a f*ckin' facist.
- Some want to punish french people boycotting french products. I personally boycott McDonald's, Esso, Nike, Danone... not because they're french or american, but just because I won't give a buck to leading companies that wish to rule the world. Boycott's not a problem to me, so do it, but chose products to boycott. I'll personally keep promoting Rage Against The Machine, AdBusters magazine and Fight Club the movie ;)
- A lot of you and us are sheeps. You are not your government, not a Pepsi’s leader... G.W. Bush and J.Chirac aren’t gods. They can declare war, but will never fight near the frontline, so they don’t care about guilty or innocent dead people killed ‘cause of their decisions.
- It made me sick to see twin towers collapsed. It made me sick to see iraqi children died ‘cause of adults’ games. It made me sick to see pictures of my grand father coming back from a concentration camp. It makes me sick to see people suffering ‘cause the élite turns out political status to their own advantage .
This is what I am not ‘cause I’m french but because I’m who I am : an individual from the human beings.
Phil,
You've got some good observations and some righteous feelings, Ami...
I have lived outside America for more than 30 years now, and I'm only 57... I studied French for deux semetres a l'ecole, but I only used it 2 days in the last 25 years, interpreting from Korean to French while working in Saudi Arabia...
Which is a bit of introduction to what being American is... and it really IS much more about thinking like an American, having ideals of freedom, self-determination, courageous responsibility and God-fearing humility that make one American; than any accident of birth.
Unlike 'french student', Phil, you seem willing to stand like many Americans, and acknowledge that your 'leadership' sometimes shames you...
That does not make all who would seek to lead France untrustworthy or base... just as Bush's mistakes do not negate other effective acts he may have taken...
Keep your eyes on the ideals, resolutely accept the actual outlines of reality out there, learn what your internal maps of reality are, and have the courage to modify your maps to conform more closely TO REALITY, and you'll continue your passage to America... Bon Chance, et Bon Voyage! :)