Now that I am back from my lobbying trip to D.C. and have the time. I am going to revisit the thread Joe, Armed Liberal, and I have had going on France. What makes this revisit interesting for me is what has been said on other blogs in the interim, specifically things posted over on Innocents Abroad and the Chicagoboyz blogs.
Please compare this from Collin May:
Now to France. I’ve spoken of this event before, but it is one that deserves a great deal of attention. On April 21, 2002, the far-right presidential candidate, Jean-Marie Le Pen, received the second largest number of votes in the first round of France’s presidential elections and advanced to the subsequent round a few weeks later. This was an incredible shock for the French, and in this regard it paralleled 9/11 in the US. On the surface, my comparison may seem suspect since no one died as a result of the election and, in the end, Jacques Chirac won a resounding victory over Le Pen in the second turn. However, there are some important similarities. Like 9/11, Le Pen’s first round success was interpreted as an attack on the very Republic of France and all it stood for. Jacques Chirac took advantage of this rhetoric, assigning himself the role of defender of the Republic. The French rallied to the cause and the Republic was saved. But was France saved?My point is that Jacques Chirac cast himself as the defender of Republican values, but Republican values have never found an exact fit with the French nation. Indeed, these values are now often diverging from the French nation itself and seeking something of a new home, a home that could be the new Europe. In other words, the French nation is splitting from the universal values it was supposed to incarnate, a split that began more or less with the end of its empire and the colonial wars following World War II. This is the great difference between events of September 11 and those of April 21. The attack on Republican values came from inside France, from people claiming to defend the French nation, whereas the US was attacked by a foreign intruder.
The implication is that the United States retains its national integrity in the face of foreign attack, while France is losing, even actively terminating, its national existence in favor of the European Union. French patriotism is committing suicide, while American patriotism is flowering.
and this
To this end, I can mention one further experience I had here in Paris shortly after arriving in the autumn of 2002. It was November 11, and I decided to go take in the events in order to see how France honors its military dead. I made my way to the Champs Elysees, just down from the Arc de Triomphe. As I watched, members of the French armed forces paraded by accompanied by marching bands. Ahead of the procession was Jacques Chirac waving from the window of his limousine as he sped by. The interesting point was that, mixed in with the French men and women in the parade, were members of the armed forces from Portugal and from the United States. They were there to remind the onlookers of the close friendship between these countries and the role Americans played in two World Wars, and perhaps even the role played by France in winning America’s independence. The most striking thing, however, was not the parading soldiers and marines, but the crowd around me. To my left were Americans, to my right were Poles. The French public was not out in numbers. The only French person I spoke with that day was an elderly man selling small tricolor ribbons. Upon seeing me, he asked me where I was from. I told him Canada. He said “Merci,” shook my hand and gave me a ribbon free of charge.
With this line from an earlier post of mine:
Yet the Chirac government still behaves as though the only thing that matters is preventing Saddam from being overthrown by the Americans.If it isn't money that is motivating the French government and it isn't power in the EU, then what is it driving them to oppose the USA on Iraq?
The answer isn't physical, it is existential.
French elites abandoned religion for nationalism after the French revolution. Then they abandoned nationalism for multi-cultural, EU style, transnational progressivism. Now that has failed as well and they are as lost as the Wahhabbis in the modern world. The elites that govern France are using their power to hurt and cause pain.
As I said before and restate now:
"People who have chosen the path of damnation are easily known. They seek power above all things. They choose what will immediately benefit them over choices that take longer but reward more. And they use what power they have to hurt others, because inflicting pain is the only pleasure they have that will reach past the aching wound where their soul used to be.
I find of tremendous interest that an Ex-Pat Canadian and a Texas Republican poles apart see the same gaping maw in the French national soul. Related to that thought, "Lexington Green" a contributor over on Chicagoboyz, said:
After mulling this business on and off today, I am left with the following train of thought. The Germans and the French are not just making gestures of opposition. They are seriously trying to prevent the United States and Britain from going into Iraq. They are persisting in this in the teeth of the manifest intention of the U.S. to go in. In other words, they are putting themselves into explicit opposition to the United States on a matter which the United States has made clear is necessary for its security. This is a very serious thing to do. They are openly and explicitly and consciously making themselves allies of a country the United States has made clear is its enemy. Moreover, the French and Germans know they have a weak hand, and they are imposing great political costs on themselves in continuing to push this. But they are persevering.
Compare that with this line I said earlier:
What is going on now is "off the reservation" for classic French behavior.Chirac's German ally, Schroeder, is a dead man walking after the recent local elections in Germany, and that was known immediately after the German national election when concealed German economic data came out.
Bush has made clear Saddam is going down regardless.
Chirac is in a perfect position to betray both for the greater glory and economic advantage of France. Yet Chirac's foreign policy is still sincere and consistent in support for both. The French foreign minister was recently in Syria to organizing joint opposition to the American invasion of Iraq. Stealing the German’s pants is one thing. Negotiating with the Syrians is evidence of French sincerity here.
Sincere? Consistent?? In a French foreign policy?!!? From Chirac!!!! What is wrong with that picture? It isn't French.
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(N.B. for the complete, updated history of this discussion arranged by date, see "Fight Night: The Dance In France")
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The France has had a "value neutral" foreign policy since before it was a real nation. This has even extended to modern times and includes issues of nuclear proliferation. Here is a link from the National Review and a snip from the Moscow Times (with a hat tip to The Diffident Spectator) :
In April 1975, Hussein visited Moscow to ask for Soviet help to build a full reactor to make nuclear weapons. Although Russia agreed to supply Iraq with staggering amounts of conventional weapons, it balked at helping Baghdad go nuclear. In September 1975, Hussein went to Paris to meet politicians with far fewer scruples than Soviet Communists. The French prime minister at the time, Jacques Chirac, signed an agreement to sell Hussein a reactor and arms-grade uranium.If Chirac and other French politicians had had their way, Hussein could have made tens of nuclear bombs by 1990. The war to liberate Kuwait would never have taken place or would have turned into an all-out nuclear confrontation between Iraq, Israel and the United States. The tragedy was avoided when in 1979 Israeli agents near Toulon destroyed two French-built reactors en route to Iraq. In 1981, the Israelis bombed to debris the French replacement reactor in Iraq before it could be made operational.
Maybe France and Germany are so loyally trying to save Hussein because they want to cover up their long-time cooperation in helping to build weapons of mass destruction? Is the treachery of the past feeding more treachery today?
America during the majority of the Cold War was no different than France in its foreign policy. There were many dictators who were supported by the USA while they muttered the magic words "I'm an anti-Communist." The Nixon-Ford years, where Henry Kissinger reigned supreme in foreign policy, was the high point of a "valueless national interest" foreign policy over a "morality informed" foreign policy.
The American public and many American elites rejected this approach. First Jimmy Carter, with his concern for human rights, and Ronald Reagan, with his "Evil Empire" speech defining the Soviet Union, returned a moral dimension to American foreign policy for 12 years.
Now both these leaders made grave moral errors that helped to set up the Islamofascist WMD threat we face today, for all their "moral posturing." Jimmy Carter did not respond forcefully to the hostage taking of the American embassy in Iran. While Reagan did both the "bug-out boogie" from Beirut after the bombing there and looked the other way while Pakistan got the nuclear bomb.
Yet the return of "valueless national interest" after Reagan arguably made things worse. Just look at G.H.W. Bush with his post-Gulf War deference to Saudi and Gulf State interests in keeping Iraq intact and the work his people did to keep a Serb dominated Yugoslavia intact to preserve "stability." You also have Clinton's serial mistakes with the Mogadishu ""Bug-out," the post-African Embassy attack cruise missile bombing of Ossama plus an aspirin factory as well as the non-reaction to the USS Cole attack coming from that same narrow view of national interest that treated terrorism as a law enforcement issue apart from middle eastern foreign policy.
The bottom line is the valueless indulgence of national interest with Arab oil states lead directly to 9/11/2001 attack. In so many words, a valueless pursuit of national interest enables evil. This is why all the people around Dubya, as William Kristol put it, are Reaganites now. As he said in a column:
As President Bush said in his State of the Union address, "America's purpose is more than to follow a process--it is to achieve a result." The result the president had in mind was "the end of terrible threats to the civilized world." Reagan ended one such threat, with the collapse of the Soviet Union.Now, as the president explained, we face a different kind of threat--"a world of chaos and constant alarm," where "outlaw regimes" sponsor terrorism and acquire and trade in horrific weapons, the better to threaten their neighbors and intimidate their people. The nature of the regime is crucial, rather than some alleged underlying, geographically or economically or culturally determined "national interest." The priority of the political order implies a morally informed American foreign policy. Thus, a brutal tyranny like Saddam's is evil, Bush said, or else "evil has no meaning"--and Bush intends to liberate the people of Iraq from their regime. As President Bush said to the people of Iraq, "Your enemy is not surrounding your country--your enemy is ruling your country."
Now, it is true that regimes don't exist apart from the various material interests and geographical and historical characteristics of nations. So "morality in foreign policy" is always limited. Necessity has its claims. And the freedom and security of one's own nation come first. But our freedom and security turn out to be inextricably linked to the character of regimes elsewhere in the world.
It mattered that the Soviet Union was an "evil empire." It matters that North Korea has, as the president said, an "oppressive regime rul[ing] a people living in fear and starvation."
I have said before that the French are acting as if the fall of Iraq would be a regime changing event. Steve Den Beste has speculated that it was for reasons of WMD proliferation. I don't think so anymore.
There is a mortal threat to the French regime, but it isn't from American hard power or anything in the Iraqi archives America will capture. It is from the soft power of American example, not from a "moral foreign policy," but the example success from the rotation of political elites within a Nation-State. That is a mortal threat to France and the EU transnational progressives alike.
The whole point of the EU is to isolate the political elites from the will of the democratic, nationalist, masses. The success of America points out that the EU experiment's isolation and inbreeding of Euro-elites is what is destroying Europe as a viable alternative to the American model.
As it is with the Islamofascist, so it is with French elites, the existance of America is a grave threat to their identity that must be destroyed for them to live.
This brings us back to the French pursuit of "valueless national interest." Lexington Green ran the following thought experiment (which his fellow contributors disagreed with here and here) on the assumption that Steven Den Beste was right about the French WMD connction to Iraq:
Let us take it a step farther. Let’s assume that the French and Germans have been actively assisting Iraq to acquire WMD, especially nuclear weapons. Why would they do this? First, of course, money. That has to be part of it. In the German case, I think it is probably the main part. But they are running huge risks just for money. There must be more. What?At least in the case of the French, a plausible explanation would be a positive desire to see Iraq armed with WMD, and to assist it to acquire them. Why? Pure power politics. France sees itself in a zero-sum power struggle with America. But America is the Hyperpower. France is forced to dance to Washington’s tune. So, France is a non-status quo power, which wants to terminate American Unipolarity. But it cannot do so on its own. It simply lacks the size, economic power, military power, vitality, efficiency – everything which it would need for a direct challenge to the United States. There is no way for France to get into the same league as the United States. France has tried to build a European Union which would offset U.S. power, with itself as primus inter pares, but it is clear to everyone with half a brain that this project will never be a true challenger to the United States.
That leaves to France only the option of doing of things which positively harm the position of the United States. France cannot do this overtly, because the United States can crush French militarily if it came to it. Therefore, arming Saddam is a way to covertly harm the United States to the advantage of France. The French benefit from nuclear weapons proliferating, because this has the effect of neutralizing American conventional military power. The French benefit from Saddam becoming an unassailable regional power in the Persian Gulf, as a client and covert ally of France, because this makes them a major player in the region through their ties to Saddam, and damages American interests in the region. The French might even believe that they would benefit from the provision of nuclear weapons to terrorists, so long as they were used against the United States. A nuclear detonation in New York or Washington or Chicago or all three would severely damage the United States. Destruction on this scale would cause worldwide economic disruption. But it would also render the United States a much less formidable actor, far less able to make its influence felt abroad, since it would be absorbed with police activity and reconstruction at home. This would enhance the relative power of other states at the expense of the United States, including France. Complicity in the destruction of millions of American lives is a price the senior political leadership in France would probably be willing to pay to enhance France's political position in the world, if it could get away with it, and if its own consequent economic losses were not unendurably severe.
So there you have it, whether you argue from valueless interest or existential evil, the result is the same. The French are hiding something they did with Iraq. The most likely explanation is they provided working nukes to Iraq.
We will find out is this theory is true if Saddam uses one on advancing American troops before he goes down.
Or if Saddam has already smuggled one to Syria for Hezbolla to use in nuking Israel.








A minor point but I notice this in today's "Sunday Times" (England)
"Jeremy Paxman's [He is one of the leading BBC Current Affairs journalists] had a bad war. He turned up to sneer at the Prime Minister [Blair] before an audience of Geordie [N-E England] doubters in Gateshead [Opposite Newcastle] and in the process trashed American intelligence for prompting Bill Clinton to zap an aspirin factory in Sudan with a cruise missile. Well, Jeremy, that factory did make aspirins, but also VX gas for Al-Qaeda. The CIA couldn't reveal it at the time, but Clinton's policy wonks have since done so, as did Jama Ahmed al-Fadl, a former Al-Qaeda member, during the trial of the bombers of the embassies in Nairobi and Dar as Salaam. It's called dual use, Jeremy."
As for the French. There is a long history of Anti-Americanism. The reason is simple. The USA is part of the Anglosphere. Since at least the C17th the French have pursued a different political and cultural vision. It is a genuine hostility. There have been defenders of the Anglosphere in the French tradition - such as Montesquieu Constant and Tocqueville - but the dominant tradition is one in which a strong State directs from the centre. Because France sees itself as the heart of Europe, any alternative vision is a threat to its position. This of course has a nationalistic aspect. Arguably the first world war was the Severn Years War in which Britain and France fought among other places in India and Canada. In the last hundred years it is Germany that has been the chief source of opposition to the Anglosphere. The EU is an organisation for pursuing French/German interests (in both its intellectual and nationalistic aspects). It is explicitly anti-American. Whether or not Britain continues to be a member is largely depends on what EU countries outside the French-German axis do (By the way France and Germany have been at war with each other since the empire of Charlemagne was divided - but the borders between them are now settled. Germany is now looking east in order to extend its influence). With a bit of luck we will unite around common Western values, the enemy is Al-Qaeda, but there is a long way to go before France decides to make that its highest priority. In the meantime a high death toll amongst members of the Anglosphere will not unduly concern it. I urge anybody who is interested to read the editorials of the chief French and German newspapers on the anniversary of September 11th. The theme is. You got it coming. Serves you right. As for Belgium, it even refused to sell ammunition to the UK during the last Gulf War.
I should say Germany and the USSR has been the chief European opponents of the Anglosphere in the past 100 years. Marxism is largely a product of French politics and German philosophy. Russia however is semi-detached from Europe. Its chief end is to maintain its empire.
have not has
Dar es Salaam
Trent- commenting on ces pieces de resistences (I had to do that) is dangerous, but I'd congratulate you on outlining French motives on a detailed, historical basis. The one comment I'd make is, what nation state isn't an amoral, soul less entity? Et qu'est que c'est la difference Francaises? The French just caught this wave of modernity early, n'est ce pas?
Hint on the answer- "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..." ergo, these governments reflect the national virtues of the people if they are "just". La vision bureaucratique is far from a vision of justice, but rather is a vision determined according to the rationality of le bureau du gouvernement...
*This should amuse everyone*:
"Alliance solidarity has prevailed," NATO Secretary-General Lord Robertson said. "We have been able collectively to overcome the impasse."
The decision to start planning for Turkey's defense, however, was taken without France, which was shut out of the room as the alliance pushed to resolve the crisis.
Tom Roberts,
Americans are wired differently and they force the American government to act differently as a result. And this process has been going on for more than 150 years.
Please see the book review of "Special Provinence" at this link and pay close attention to the American "Wilsonian tradition."
http://www.powells.com/review/2002_04_18.html
Trent: That review parallels my own comments that I posted months ago at Bros Judd site. I'd characterize French foreign policy as exclusively Hamiltonian, which would make Jefferson as a Francophile spin in his grave. But Napolean screwed the French Republican extension bit, giving the French liberte', egalite', et fraternite' but servile clienthood to the rest of l'Empire Francaise.
But you are right about the US being uniquely capable of Wilsonian traditions, although Blair's last speech had distinctly Wilsonian overtones. Note his topical links between social reform internationally and domestically. So maybe there is hope for the Old Country. but France appears hopelessly in love with raison d'etat at this point.
Tom R,
Bear in mind that the British extermination of the slave trade was a result of their protestant dissenter religious churches anti-slavery campaign.
It is a direct counter part to the American Wilsonian tradition that has its roots in the American missionary movement.