Glad they're still here:

Katherine Harris in Florida. Of no particular significance, except to demonstrate to some that the blind lust for petty, mindless vengeance is not much of a plan for America's future. Also, trying to run over people with cars is no fair.

Dan Rather. I won't be satisfied until CBS is such a smoking wreck that they have to borrow money from George Soros every week to meet their payroll, and Dan's just the man to do it. Four more years!

The Last Comment of Klaatu:

I woke up yesterday in Florida, working for Kerry at polling places there. I was there for the weekend. I wish I went to Ohio now. I flew to my safe blue state at 7:00 pm, arriving late at night. It's now 0344 where I am and the news is not good. You can gloat if you want, but I believe that the result of the election could be the ruin of the Republic. I've already been to a "party" late last night in my state and talked to a state representative, a union guy, who mentioned "secesh." Would or could the South and Middle fight a civil war to keep states in the Northeast and Pacific coast whose polity fundamentally disagreed with the direction of the federal government? I would recommend An Empire Wilderness by Robert Kaplan for further examination of the durability of the USA and Canada.

I believe that Kerry's election could have averted a disaster for the USA at home and abroad, by restoring faith in American ideals in the rest of the world, and faith in the American dream in the large portion of the population who is just getting by now.

However much Joe and his pasty-faced sycophants dream of a National Unity Party, there will always be dissidents like me, who believe in a living wage, protection of the environment and human rights, restraint in the use of military power, and a "decent respect for the opinions of mankind." Their Nationaleinigheitspartei, or in fairness (because Joe's NUP is not based on overt racism), Il Partito della Unita Nazionale is a fascist idea. Fascism comes from the Latin fasces, the bound rods which symbolized the unity of the state. The essence of fascism is unity: the society of corporate economic activity, governmental apparatus, arts, broadcasting, military, etc. The lack of opposition, the "get on board" mentality: that is the essence of fascism. For pointing out the inherently fascist character of a "National Unity Party," I have been threatened with deletion. Res ipsa loquitor.

People here talk shite all the time, this campaign or that . . . Iran, North Korea, or Syria. I just don't talk the talk, I walk the walk. Me and my own have been in dangerous places over the last year. We are part of the class who put ourselves in harm's way. We are not warbloggers, we are warfighters. What we saw in Iraq, what we see here in the USA does not give us confidence in the direction that this country is going.

Addio.

Klaatu: I've already been to a "party" late last night in my state and talked to a state representative, a union guy, who mentioned "secesh."

Interesting plan. A few nitpicks, though:

1. Robert E. Lee is dead.
2. To paraphrase Sam Houston (whose advice was ignored by that last bunch of secessionist hot-heads) "The Pacific Northwest is too small to be a republic, and too large to be an insane asylum."
3. If California secedes, what are they going to do when we shut off all their electricity? Are they going to invade Alaska so they can seize ANWAR? Where are they going to get warm winter clothing?
4. Ecotopia was a really, really stupid book.

WOW.

The Angry Left has officially left the reservation. Secession? Why? So you can have your states rights & continue to enslave the unborn to the 3/4 rule & use them for their stem cells? LOL

I sure hope there are more adults in the Democratic Party. Ya'll gotta really look yourselves in the mirror.

Klaatu --

When the Democrats get around to analyzing "what went wrong", I hope they're wise enough to take into account the myopia and moral vanity of too many on the left (including, apparently, you), who can't bear to see their vision of What Ought To Be contradicted without concluding that those who disaggree with them are villains who, if they get their way, will lead the nation into fascism.

There are folks like that on the right, too, but man are there ever more of 'em on the left, these days.

I am glad Daschle is gone and I do think his attempted law suit to have Republican Poll Watchers to be banned because he had ONE witness from out of state who testified that poll watchers rolled their eyes at him might have won the election for Thune. ;-)
Maybe it did not win the election totally but I
don't think it helped Daschle.

John McCain ONLY wants the best for John McCain! He is a self-centered media hound who betrayed those P.O.W.'s left behind (even though he was once a P.O.W. himself). (One of those he betrayed was my brother).

John McCain betrayed us all, just like John Kerry. Together they attempted to absolve the Communist Vietnamese and the Kmer Rouge regime and over 2 million Vietnamese and Cambodians died.

If you think the Swift Boat Veterans were angry at Traitor John Kerry, just wait and see what we do to McCain if he ever runs for President again.

He won't! He has been warned by those of us who first obtained more details of his shennanigans after his 2000 race. He wants to keep the reputation he has and as long as he NEVER runs for President again, he will. We will ignore his Bull Shit. It is not worth the hassle to do anything else. However, the knowledge of his actions is out there and he knows it. That is just a word to the wise.

Secession, or the threat thereof, is an important check on the power of the central government. Any central government willing to use force to prevent such secession tells us by doing so all we need to know about its moral characteristics. Some governments should splinter so as to achieve enhanced accountability in a more decentralized state.

That said, I don't find secession at all likely or practical in the current environment.

And while I agree that the Bush team, especially that part which puts an emphasis on national greatness, has very strong police state and fascist tendencies, I'm wholly unconvinced that the Kerry team, with its strong communist tendencies and some of the same police state aspects, would be any better.

A Bush defeat would have been nice from a "punishing stupidity" standpoint, but I can't honestly say that the Kerry team would have acted less stupid.

I'm going to go throw up now.

As one of "Joe's pasty-faced syncophants" I can only hope that Klaatu's 'last comment' turns out to be a more solid promise than various lefty threats to leave the country should Bush win.

Around 2pm yesterday, one of my coworkers asked me to bet on the election (he supported ABB, I supported Bush) and I would only make a deal with him: should Kerry win, I would refrain from bitching or whining about the democrats for one week; should Bush win, he would refrain from nasty comments about Bush, and cease sending me messages fantasizing about killing republicans for one week. (And yes, that's the sort of crap he's been sending me.)

Easy for me, the worst thing I did to this fella was send him the transcript of the Winter Soldier testimony. For the past two weeks, I have had to endure various charges from him that I am an ignorant racist redneck, or must be an elitist WASP living on a trust fund. I've even been asked if I've got a triple-6 under my hairline. His constant and completely untrue attacks on my character (and democrat characterizations that anyone voting for Bush must be an idiot, or insane), more than strong support for Bush is what drove me to the polls. I am very much looking forward to a week of silence.

Obama is a rising star, but he now says his first priority is health care. He did say a few good things about the war, but he's actually quite liberal. Let's see what he ends up doing.

Klaatu - It's called democracy, and note that Bush has an absolute majority this time (first election in many that such is the case; Clinton never got one).

Klaatu -

When you're done licking your wounds, please come back and rejoin the dialog. There's a lot of stuff to do...

A.L.

Edwards doens't have a Senate career: Burr (R-NC) just took his seat. (He didn't run for reelection).

Klaatu: You sound just like me in my younger, dumber days, under Clinton. I survived 8 years of him; you will make it through 8 years of Bush. Hopefully somewhere along the way you'll find some sense of perspective.

Patty Murray (D) - Washington - handily defeated George Nethercutt ( R), despite being an open fan of Osama bin Laden's social programs. George Nethercutt had an advertisement I downloaded ("Different") that showed her saying this seriously, at length and in her own words. I think Patty Murray belongs in the hall of shame. And I think the voters were wrong to support her.

I am not an admirer of John McCain, except as a firm supporter of the global war on terror. Perhaps Americans can tell me what else he is admired for. I know him from McCain-Feingold, an alleged campaign finance reform bill that constrained free speech, made for a dirty election, and put more rather than less power in the hands of big money men. There other bills named after John McCain that are a whole lot better than that, I hope?

Can anyone tell me if there are any new pro-life stars? I don't mean any unpopular and untalented politician who will vote (from my point of view) the right way, but a major talent, someone with the potential to have a big future.

At the Republican National Convention in New York, it seemed that the Republicans had one (1) great champion of life: George W. Bush. His protection for the unborn, like Schindler's list, is an unconditioned good. All around its margins lies the abyss. All the other real Republican stars - Guiliani, Schwarzenegger, McCain - are pro-choice. In four years, George must move on, and then the options will be death, death and death - or the Democrats, who would be worse except that dead is dead. Single-issue pro-life people might as well stay at home.

I'm not looking to debate pro-life-pro-choice here. I know all the pro-choicers think they are right. What I want, if anybody knows of one, is a hero.

Rob -

But there's a more important issue. How did Weed do in C'ville?

A.L.

Weed got his ass handed to him 64-36, although he probably did fine in C'ville proper (50-50 in Albemarle county). I didn't look at a single poll, but I saw it coming. When an NRA A+ incumbant is challenged by an NRA F rated democrat, the outcome should be obvious without even checking with Zogby.

"When you're done licking your wounds, please come back and rejoin the dialog. There's a lot of stuff to do..."

I can't think of anything worth talking about. Bush and the republicans generally aren't interested in compromise when they feel themselves in a position of strength. In such circumstances a dialog means them telling everyone else what they want to do and demanding that they agree or face charges of being obstructionist.

If it was up to me, I'd suggest the dems just vote against the stuff they don't like and work on figuring out what they really need to accomplish over the next couple of decades. Then figure out an electoral strategy that's going to get them there. It's going to be a rare time when pubs cross the aisle in any meaningful way. So why bother going the other direction?

"Can anyone tell me if there are any new pro-life stars? I don't mean any unpopular and untalented politician who will vote (from my point of view) the right way, but a major talent, someone with the potential to have a big future."

He just told you. Bobby Jindal ®, LA. I'll take it one further. Bobby Jindal will be the V.P. on the Republican ticket in 2008.

I am so glad this election is over, and I'm waiting for everyone to digest this obvious new fact:

Like Reagan before him, Republicans and Democrats re-elected Bush. But the Bush Democrats are not the Boll Weevil Democrats. They are not all conservatives, by any means - they range right out into the far leftward regions, in some cases. They are the 9/11 Democrats who have realized that we are all the beneficiaries of a threatened civilization that is worth saving. And they know (unlike some) that "The Democratic Party" is not a nation.

This is the new alliance, and I welcome it. I hope to see it transcend, and render obsolete, all the old partisan nonsense.

Glen:

The exit polls I saw on CNN gave Kerry 89% of the dem vote. That number might go up or down a little, but it doesn't seem like a whole lot of dems voted Bush. Why wouldn't partisanship matter when Bush advocates policies (both foreign and domestic) that dems think are wrong?

Klaatu, you were threatened with deletion of future comments because your rants were violating the on-topic requirement and derailing a thread. As you have almost managed to derail this one.

I'm going to close out off-topic discussions of Klaatu's sophomoric (and ignorant) rant here. Res ipsa loquitur indeed, and not in the way he thinks. Future comments not dealing with the topic of this post will be removed.

Back to our topic...

• Patty Murray will be added.

• Come to think of it, so will Tom DeLay for his Texas gerrymander.

• Celebrim, the pro-life movement isn't one of my issues, so I couldn't tell you which representatives stand where. But I'm quite sure there are many pro-life reps - try finding a pro-life organization's "report card", or look for Planned Parenthood's and focus on the low scores.

• Dingo, I hope the Democrats do that (without drinking the Kool-Aid and concluding that the party is insufficiently leftist, though many forces will push them that way). One of the reasons we focus on this topic is because these are the folks likely to play leading roles in that effort. Whom do you see doing that among the 2004 newbies/returnees?

Dingo

”I can't think of anything worth talking about. Bush and the republicans generally aren't interested in compromise when they feel themselves in a position of strength. In such circumstances a dialog means them telling everyone else what they want to do and demanding that they agree or face charges of being obstructionist.”

It’s this kind of attitude that puts everyone at odds. Let me put it this way. After listening to Kerry / Edwards throughout the entire campaign all we kept hearing is “I have a plan”. Well Mr. “I have a plan” for the GWOT, “I have a plan” for the economy, “I have a plan” for Social Security, “I have a plan” for rising health care costs, “I have a plan” for nuclear proliferation, “I have a plan” for the war in Iraq, on and on and on. Last I checked Mr. “I have a plan” did not give up his senate seat. I suggest Mr. “I have a plan” dust off his play book lay it all out on the table and lets open some serious debate about them plans. Or as you suggest Mr. “I have a plan” can take the high road keep it all to himself and die a bitter beaten man with the trials and tribulations of all mankind tugging at his soul because of his failures to act on his beliefs.

The implication here is that the current administration wont listen to alternatives and that I believe couldn't be farther from the truth. In life we don’t always get what we want but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t step up to the plate because we can’t all hit home runs. If you play baseball and never swing the bat for fear of striking out the chances are greater that you will never get a hit. First base is better than no base at all. Play by the rules within the rules and you have an equal chance. Don’t play by the rules the Ump will throw you out of the game. You decide which is worse taking the swing or walking away.

Joe:

I can't see anyone emerging from the dem side as a future leader of the dems other than Hillary. She and Bill just suck up all the oxygen. Obama came off well, but politics is more than just looking good and making a good speech. You has to understand media, the need for a coherent ideology that can unite followers, and the use of knives to carve up the opposition. Does he have those skills? I dunno. Have to wait and see.

dingo: The exit polls I saw on CNN gave Kerry 89% of the dem vote.

I didn't say there were lots of 9/11 Democrats, nevertheless they were important in this election and will be more important in the future.

And you've reminded me of a prime candidate for the Hall of Shame: Markos and the whole Daily Kos gang. This is what Kos wrote in The Guardian last night:

"Unless the Republicans can engineer a recovery of epic proportions, they will have a great deal to answer to in the 2006 midterms and 2008. And God help Bush if this nation suffers another terrorist attack."

This is the rotten hulk of the dying ideology, boys and girls. This is what they've been reduced to: Four more years of praying for the economy to tank and the terrorists to attack.

Is that the way all Democrats want to go? I don't think so. And I think it's time for Kos to ride off into the far fringes where he belongs.

I'm not familiar with Markos, so I can't comment on his work. I have noticed a tendency among right wingers to frequently interpret valid criticism of Bush's plans (especially when Bush is in one of his triumphalist moods) as hope that the plans will fail for political reasons.

I agree that the dem party is killing itself, but I doubt we'd agree on what would rejuvenate it.

Glen: "...frequently interpret valid criticism of Bush's plans"

I am not interpreting all criticism of Bush, I'm interpreting Markos. And his nasty "God help Bush if this nation suffers another terrorist attack" is not criticism, valid or otherwise.

Kos already owns a furnished condo in the Hall of Shame - but since he didn't run in 2004, he isn't eligible for this one. And he isn't a big enough factor to be eligible as an "Outside Playa," either.

Dingo & Glen - they don't have to be 2008 Presidential candidates. They just have to be candidates who [a] ran in 2004 and [b] show a lot of promise; or © are leading advocates on a key issue you believe is very important to the country.

Hall of Shame: Governor Ed Rendell of Pennsylvania(and anyone else who attmepted the same for his effort to keep military votes from being counted

All the sponors of the anti gay marriage bills. Most have tenets that will disenfranchise heterosexual couples as(opposite note to Hall of Fame the two senators from Ohio whom acknowledged the problem and the secretary of State there.

Hall of Fame: All 120 million people who showed up to vote on either side(personal note I thought this was going to be the number for the presidential vote alone. When Fox alarmingly reported 2 million new registrants to the 8 million last presidential election in Florida and others in state like Penn and Ohio, I started thinking 25% increase in turnout MANDATE)

Citizens of Colorado who voted to leave an accursed institution(electoral college)alone

Outside Playas
Ohio's Secretary of State gets an honourable mention. Don't know which party he's from, but I saw him in an interview and he conveys confidence and competence. I was impressed. If it all comes down to
Ohio, America seems to be in good hands this time.

Ohio's Secretary of State is Ken Blackwell, he is the only conservative in state wide office. He is also the only black.

The funny thing is that all state wide office holders are Republicans. The governor Bob Taft, great-grandson of President WH Taft and grandson of Sen, Mr. Republican, is reaching the end of his second term December 31, 2006, and is term limited. Taft has turned out to be a bad tempered dope and has pissed every-one off by raising taxes to balance the budget instead of cutting the luxuraint undergrowth of state buracracy.

There will be a free for all among Ohio republicans for the gubanatorial nomination in 2006. Blackwell's ambiton's are well known and he has already staked out a strong position on the big issues of taxes and beuracracy.

Blackwell, by doing such a bang-up job of running this election has really boosted his cause. I am going to send his campaign another $100.

I live in Jim McDermott's district, and it would be nice if the GOP could find someone to run against him who wasn't a gay-baiting wingnut wacko. I voted for her only to punish McDermott, knowing full well that he was assured of re-election.

Hopefully, he'll retire soon, but if not then please please please let there be a liberal-friendly RINO candidate in the future.

Robert, thanks for the update, I'll link it.

Bryan... seconded.

Glad They're Back: Indiana Senator Evan Bayh
Impressively level-headed this past campaign season. Democrats should pay attention to his ability to win in Indiana counties that went for Bush by more than a 2-1 margin.

Added Bayh. Good catch.

(Update: he's a Republican, and now a strong candidate for to become the state's first black Rebublican governor.)

There has never been a black Democrat, either.

Blackwell has an uphill battle in any event. The Republican establishment in Ohio sees him as a maverick for having opposed Taft on the tax increases.

Most Ohio Republicans are in the classic Eisenhower-Nixon mold of high tax, balanced budgets than the Reagan-Bush low tax high growth mold.

You may recall that Voinovich was one of the republican Senators who the MSM held up as a model of responsibility a couple of years ago, because he hijacked the budget bill and torpedoed some tax decreases. That is a typical Ohio Republican.

#34956 by klaatu,

"I believe that Kerry's election could have averted a disaster for the USA at home and abroad,"

Well a lot of us feel that such a plan is very similar to the Chamberlain plan for peace with Germany 1938.

"by restoring faith in American ideals in the rest of the world, and faith in the American dream in the large portion of the population who is just getting by now."

And just please tell me who will pay in blood if people who hate America are in total control of the world oil supply?

Soros?

Now your buddy boy Soros does not care if the little guy gets hurt by his engineered panics. He has said so.

How can you claim to be the party of the little guy with such monsters at tthe top.

Not to mention the Jew hating bastard Morre who sat next to an ex-president at the Dem convention.

If these are the people you honor then you personally deserved to lose.

We who support Bush do not wish to restore faith in American ideals. Such faith is useless. We wish to restore American ideals.

Death to tyrants.

If this makes the tyrants of the world and their supporters uncomfortable well, perhaps we can make the fires a little hotter.

Death to tyrants.

BTW real sorry to harsh your mellow.

Joe,

My apologies for firing before I read all the comments.

Any way here is one strong Libertarian (Secty/Treas of my local group for 3 years) who became a Republican after 9/11.

I promise to support Bush on the war and oppose him on the culture war issues.

If the drug war is any indication should pro life laws go into effect we will have vagina police. Once that happens I intend to do everything possible to undermine the policy.

Patrolling women's vaginas is not a job for government.

Well any way based on such sentiments my ticket was Bush/Obama. Obama is a University of Chicago guy so eventually they will get to him on economics. If he is right with the war then he could be a unifying candidate for the future.

==

It should not be government's job to push the culture in any particular direction.

If Bush tries it will cost him.

Further thougts,

If Bush caves to the Keyes faction of the Party I predict that 2004 will be the high point for the Republican Party. In fact I predicted that some time back.

The future of America, as always, is in the center.

I think Illinois exemplifies the future of the country.

Moderation.

I voted Bush strictly because of a desire to see the policy of death to tyrants firmly established.

M. Simon: "I voted Bush strictly because of a desire to see the policy of death to tyrants firmly established."

That's a great reason for voting for Bush. Thank you for doing so. And I'm sure you will get what you wanted. At minimum, the Republican Party will not turn away from the Bush Doctrine now, and the Democrats have some thinking to do. That's good news. :)

"If Bush caves to the Keyes faction of the Party I predict that 2004 will be the high point for the Republican Party. In fact I predicted that some time back."

Alan Keyes has his own wing of the Republican Party? Who knew? I assume it isn't doing very well.

I had Alan Keyes in mind when I asked - are there any real pro-life heroes on the way? Alan Keyes is my example of what I don't want. It does no good to have people "promoting" an unequivocal pro-life message if they're the kind of people that turn voters against everything that they say. It's not useful to know that someone is hated by EMILY's List if they're also hated by everyone else. Candidates approved only by tiny groups of true believers are not the answer.

In passing, I'd like to thank Mary Cheney for helping unworthy candidates of both parties to identify themselves for the benefit of the voters. Taking a shot at a faithful daughter who's harmed no-one is evidently an irresistible temptation to some people.