Winds of Change.NET: Honor-Related Violence: The Feminist Response

March 6, 2005

Honor-Related Violence: The Feminist Response

by Robin Burk at March 6, 2005 4:20 PM

A few days ago I posted a short, angry article about a sharp increase in rapes within immigrant (and heavily Muslim) communities in Sweden and neighboring communities. That post drew criticism on several grounds. The first was that my post and the blogger I cited didn't prove the nature of the crimes and their connection to the immigrant community. The second was that to speak about the religious affiliation of the immigrant community unfairly stigmatized Muslims and stirs up hatred. The latter concerned me and I didn't want to let that issue just hang out there without responding to it. This is the last of a 3 part series in response to those comments:

NOTE: this is a sensitive subject and needs to be discussed responsibly. Here's what I wrote below: My concern here is the violence against women. I'm interested in the religious and ethnic makeup of those immigrant communities only insofar as it might either condone or foster that violence. But as I documented in Part 1, there are those who would incite racial and religious hatred against all Muslims and they are not shy about using incidents and statistics such as these to gain support.

That fact makes it hard for people of goodwill to talk about this issue. And yet, to fail to do so is to abandon hundreds of thousands of young girls and women in Europe, and potentially millions world-wide. And more broadly, it is to fail to address a serious and troubling problem which itself is a symptom of a larger challenge facing us.

Sweden, Rape & Responsible Speech discussed the marginalization of immigrants, predominantly from Muslim countries, in ghettos on the outskirts of several Swedish cities. I noted scholarly articles, official statistics and press reports, all of which point towards a sharp rise in violent (often juvenile) male crime committed by members of, and often within, immigrant communities in Sweden and neighboring countries. This trend occurs at a time when many Muslims in Sweden have turned to overseas imams for religious guidance on living in a non-Muslim society - an adaptation that would be wrenching under any circumstance for people from a traditional society, and one that is exacerbated by marginalization and ghettoization in Sweden.

Kurds from Iraq are well-prepresented among the Muslim immigrants in Sweden. That makes two recent events noteworthy. First, according to a Swedish scholar, one of the two most influential Muslim preachers among Swedish immigrants is a fundamentalist Sunni leader in the Association of Islamic Scholars in Iraq, a group with strong ties to the Ba'athist and jihadist insurgency there. And second, recent arrests in Sweden include Kurdish members of Ansar al-Islam who are accused of involvement in the terror bombing in Irbil, Iraq last year.

This was the background behind my response to the rape of a 13 year old girl by 4 Kurdish men in Motala, Sweden, who reportedly took the time to videotape her several-hour long ordeal.

It is unclear from reports whether this girl is herself from an immigrant background. But what is clear is that a) there has been a sharp rise in rapes of girls under 15 years of age in Sweden during the last 9 years, and b) what some characterize as honor-based violence against Muslim women and girls is a serious problem in Sweden and France, the European countries with the largest communities of first- and second-generation immigrants from Muslim countries.

My concern here is the violence against women. I'm interested in the religious and ethnic makeup of those immigrant communities only insofar as it might either condone or foster that violence. But as I documented in Part 1, there are those who would incite racial and religious hatred against all Muslims and they are not shy about using incidents and statistics such as these to gain support.

Before examining the response of other feminists to violence against women and girls in Muslim immigrant communities, I thought it might be useful to take a look back at the American experience. We too have faced several waves of massive immigration by people from very different religious, ethnic and cultural backgrounds. That led to sporadic violence here as well. And yet, to a fair degree, those immigrants were assimilated here in ways that enriched both their religious identity and the country as a whole. Immigrants, Religion and Conflict - the U.S. Experience, long though it is, just skims the surface of this fascinating and complex history.

The Beijing Platform and NOW

In 1995 the United Nations Fourth World Conference on Women was held in Beijing, China. There the United States signed the Beijing Platform for Action, which the National Organization for Women describes as:

a landmark international agreement that committed governments to promoting women's freedom of political participation, increasing their access to education, employment, and health care, and protecting their human rights, such as the right to be free from violence in the home, workplace, and in society at large.

These are words I wholeheartedly support. The devil, however, is in the details of interpretation and emphasis. How do (especially traditional) societies get from "here" to "there"? What is the right balance between a go-slow, evolutionary approach (which in some countries equates to a stonewall) and a revolutionary, tear-up-the-roots approach to traditional cultures?

This dilemma is at its most stark and most contentious regarding abortion. And the roots of contention are religious.

An ongoing UN women's conference adopted on Friday a declaration reaffirming a UN platform for action toward women's equality after the United States dropped all proposals to amend it, including inserting anti-abortion language.
The statement, approved by consensus later Friday by the 40-member UN Commission on Status of Women (CSW), endorsed the platform and a declaration adopted with it at the Beijing world conference on women in 1995.

The meeting in New York, dubbed "Beijing at Ten: Achieving Gender Equality, Development and Peace," is reviewing the world's progress toward gender equality after the Beijing conference.

The two-week event, which will conclude on March 11, had been overshadowed by the controversy triggered by the US attempt to amend the statement.
While reaffirming the Beijing platform and other UN documents on women, the US amendment would have specified that "they do not create any new international human rights, and that they do not include the right to abortion."

As Xinhua reports, the U.S. made its position clear.

Addressing the CSW after the declaration's adoption, Sauerbrey reiterated the US administration's stance against abortion, drawing boos from audience, among them representatives of hundredsof non-governmental organizations (NGOs).
"We have stated clearly and on many occasions ... that we do not recognize abortion as a method of family planning, nor do we support abortion in our reproductive health assistance," she said.

"The United States understands that there is international consensus that the terms 'reproductive health services' and 'reproductive rights' do not include abortion or constitute support,endorsement, or promotion of abortion or the use of abortifacients."
The US attempt to amend the declaration was denounced by many other nations and NGO representatives as "playing politics with women's lives."

In fact, many people in the NGO and feminist world DO believe that abortion is a key part of reproductive rights for women, the assertions of some progressives notwithstanding. In Beijing, the U.S. position was supported by several Islamic countries plus the Vatican. In NY this past week, the Islamic leaders were silent and the U.S., the Vatican and two other Catholic countries from Latin America stood alone in opposing abortion as a reproductive right.

Catholics constitute 1/3 of the U.S. population. Several other religious groups in the U.S. also either oppose abortion availability or wish to see it used in limited circumstances only. And here we see one effect of the phenomenon that Hirshman points out, cited in Part 1-A:

Although religious faith provides continuity with experiences prior to immigration, the commitment, observance, and participation are generally higher in the American setting after immigration than in the origin country.

The belief that abortion is a reproductive right that should be extended to all women is reflected in the priorities of the National Organization for Women, the predominant feminist organization in the U.S. My own experience with NOW in the mid-late 1980s (see Part 1 ) is consistent with their webpage and public activity. I saw a big emphasis on legalized and subsidized abortion and on gay rights - but little emphasis on practial aid to immigrant women from traditional societies, for whom abortion was morally and religiously unacceptable.

Implicit in the NOW position, and that of many feminists, is the belief that the only way for women to be free of oppression and violence is for them to become secularized westerners and to embrace the western feminist agendas.

This is IMO both naive and deeply unhelpful. Even if I agreed with the diagnosis -- and I don't -- at a practical level such a stance is guaranteed to produce a backlash in which women and children will suffer the most. Which is why I was interested to learn what feminists in Sweden and related countries are saying and doing about the violence in immigrant Muslim communities there.

Responding to Rapes and Other Honor-based Violence

In October, 2003 the International Herald Tribune published an article about gang-rapes of girls in the French cit�s, the concrete ghettos that ring Paris and other major cities, which are home to Europe's largest population of first and second-generation immigrants from Muslim countries.

The boys were patient, standing in line and waiting their turn to rape. .
Their two victims, girls of 13, were patient as well, never crying out, at least that is what the neighbors said, and enduring the violence and abuse not once, but repeatedly over five months.
.
That was three years ago. Late last month, 10 young men, now ranging in age from 18 to 21, were convicted of rape in a closed courtroom in nearby Evry and sentenced to prison terms ranging from three to five years. Seven others will go on trial in November. The fact that they are being brought to justice at all is highly unusual.
.
The phenomenon of gang rape in France has become banal. It occurs - how often is unknown - in the concrete wastelands built as cheap housing for immigrants on the outskirts of France's big cities. Here, according to sociologists and prosecutors, teenage boys, many of them loosely organized into gangs, prey on neighborhood girls.
.
Many of the boys are raised in closed, traditional families and are hopelessly confused or ignorant about sex; others are simply street toughs. In this world, women enjoy little respect; often girls who appear weak, or who wear tight-fitting clothing or go out unaccompanied by their fathers or brothers are considered fair game.

The response of girls and women to this violence is to adopt, at least outwardly, the signs of a traditional Muslim woman:

To avoid trouble, many girls of the projects have taken to wearing loose-fitting jogging clothes and hidden themselves behind domineering fathers or brothers; others have organized themselves into their own gangs. Many of the Muslim girls have donned head scarves - more for protection than out of religious conviction.

However, that may be of little use. As the IHT article notes, boyfriends have lined up their peers to rape girlfriends who agree to have sex. One young woman was burned alive by an angry boyfriend.

Young girls in this situation may not get much support from their families:

"What were the girls doing in the afternoons down in the basements?" asked one women who lives on the first floor of the building ... The neighborhood butcher, who is from Algeria, spoke as if the suburb was a world apart. "If a girl goes out, she is going to get in trouble, especially with Arabs and blacks, because they are not used to seeing girls outside", he said. "The boys have needs. Where I come from it is not normal that a girl goes outside at night. If I tell my sister not to go out, she obeys me. This world is not like France."

But in fact, it is in France. The IHT article goes on to note estimates that reported gang-rapes in France increased 4-fold in 20 years, in part perhaps because more girls are speaking out. However, the price is high - girls are harassed, spit upon, attacked or watch their fathers kill themselves in response to being dishonored.

I am ambivalent about the term that many European feminists are using to discuss this growing problem: "honor-related violence". But the term does point indirectly at an important characteristic of these rapes and of the community's response to the girls and women afterwards. This is not random violence. It has a cultural / religious context and motivation. (And in traditional societies it is very difficult to separate culture and religion.)

Consider this comment by a Swedish Kurdish leader in response to the harassment and eventual murder of a young woman:

The killing happened after four years of harassment by men in Ms Sahindal's family who were outraged by her choice of a white Swedish boyfriend and her decision to pursue higher education.
Ms Sahindal became a cause celebre four years ago when she refused to give up the boyfriend, Patrik, and took court action to halt threats of "rape, murder and partition" from her father and 17-year-old brother. Within a month of the court case, in which her father was fined and given a suspended jail sentence, her boyfriend died in an unrelated car crash.

She was living alone under an assumed name in another town and it is not known how her father tracked her down.

Leif Eriksson, Ms Sahindal's lawyer, said she had gone to her sister's house to say goodbye.

"It is not clear how he knew she was there," he added. Ms Sahindal spoke of her difficulties in 1998, saying: "All of this is based on my parents' fear of Swedish society.

"They can't read and have difficulty in understanding Sweden. They are surrounded by their own people and a satellite dish that lets them see Turkish television.

"I don't know how many times I've told my mother that Swedish girls are not whores, but her reply is simply, 'Don't you think I can see with my own eyes?' "
"If a girl goes out with a boy without being married then she's a whore," said Kamaran Shwan, chairman of the Kurdish Association in the southern town of Malmo.

How to respond to such incidents - and to the non-assimilation of immigrants into Swedish society which enable them?

In researching this issue I found two key documents, both produced with strong input from feminist organizations in Europe. The first is the European Resource Book and Good Practice , "For prevention of violence against women and girls in patriarchal families".

The second is the proceedings from the European Conference on Honour Related Violence within a Global Perspective: Mitigation and Prevention in Europe, held in Stockholm this past October.

I could (but won't) write another 2 or 3 long essays based on these two documents. Here are some points I took away from reading them:

1. Swedish society has historically run on a consensus and welfare model that worked well for a small population that is ethnically, culturally and religiously (now non-religiously) homogenous. It is very badly equipped to deal with signficant diversity, especially as the generous welfare state must shrink. Swedish authorities lack even authorization to keep track of honor-based violence statistics. In general, most Swedes are still reluctant to publicly acknowledge the nature of the problem although there is a growing concern among the general populace. Those who are open about the extent and nature of the problem are, in some cases, ultra-right nationalists and possibly racists.

2. Travel across national borders, and especially ease of travel to and from countries of origin, makes it easy for traditional families to impose forced marriages on unwilling girls and women. These women are sometimes forced to remain in highly restricted situations in those countries despite holding Swedish citizenship. They have little or no recourse and any protest may result in honor violence against them.

3. Swedish NGOs, including womens' groups, have had some modest success in offering safe houses. However, as the Sahindal case shows, unless a woman is willing to totally separate herself from her family and community, that may not help.

4. Although the Swedish schools emphasize language studies for new immigrants, heavily segregated schools in the ghettos result in more, not less, pressure for girls to adopt traditional Muslim behavior, dress and restrictions.

5. Attempts to involve community religious and social leaders in a dialogue have, in many cases, proven counterproductive. Rather than ease the dichotomy between the traditional communities and wider Swedish society, these patriarchially- and religiously-dominated groups have used this dialogue to identify women and girls who are acting outside their strictures and to identify potential legal action that they oppose.

Summing Up the Situation

Historically, waves of immigrants into the U.S. have been assimilated through religious structures and as a result of economic opportunities. In Sweden and France, neither mechanism seems to be working in a productive way. The result is a serious and growing degree of violence against girls and women, and reinforcement for angry violence on the part of young men from immigrant backgrounds.

I'll end this series with a quote from the Stockholm conference. I don't agree with everything Haideh Daragahi (who IIRC is ethnically Kurdish) says, but it is worth hearing:

In relation to this particular issue, i.e. honour related violence, I want to first and foremost, to emphasise the global nature of this category of crime. If we miss the political and the global aspect of this, we have made local efforts which may be helpful here and there, but which cannever go far enough.
Because a lot of the anti women tendencies among the people that I call European citizens of a non-European origin do not originate here. The minorities I talk about get their inspiration and their intellectual feedback from the most reactionary governments or political reassure groups in the countries where a lot of these minorities come from. When it is not direct financial support, proving which is a police work, it is ideological support activating tendencies that we can assume exist passively.

Also going beyond Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East, one can also mention and emphasise the political and global nature of these tendencies. For instance when George Bush puts a ban on American aid to countries or governments with organisations that support abortion it is not only the money these organisations are deprived of; it is a green light for the most reactionary governments in these parts of the world to oppress their women.

In Canada right now, in the state of Ontario, an example of this, justified in the name of respect for other cultures. They are considering, and the lady put in charge of the study is very positive towards this reform being adopted, that in legal matters or family disputes concerning the minorities the court should have a consulting body of Islamist lawyers. This means two kinds of laws in Canada for women, one for women from these minorities and one for the white majority. This is scaring a lot of these women. The women�s� movement in Canada has also taken a stand, but so far a very weak one.
It is worth speculating whether this decision has anything to do with the fact that the state of Ontario is also the state where the previous Iranian President, Rafsamjani, who was also the head of the parliament, has a large part of his investments. There are economic and political dimensions connected to what we are talking about. We cannot afford to be naive about that.

Your comments, thoughts and responses are welcome. I hope that this 3 part series has clarified what I was thinking and where my anger was aimed in my original short post.

Full Series:

Swedish Rape Stats: Where's The Outrage?

Sweden, Rape & Responsible Speech
Immigrants, Religion and Conflict - the U.S. Experience
Honor-Related Violence: The Feminist Response

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Comments

#1 from Joe A at 8:31 pm on Mar 06, 2005

I believe that that all individuals are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, and that to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among persons.

Do continental European governments believe in this? Do the Ontario province government believe that all individuals are created equal or, following Orwell's phrase: All persons are equal, but some persons are more equal than others?

I don't think that granting privileges to the Muslim minorities will solve the problem, on the contrary, it will worsen it. That was a succesful policy against worker movements and trade unions, but it won't work this time. Now it's just a matter of whether any individual is free in a Western society or not, and if the government may dare to enforce the law against members of minorities to maintain those freedoms, even if a violent backlash is expected.

#2 from Joe Katzman at 9:24 pm on Mar 06, 2005

I live in Ontario. They believe in Orwell's phrase.

#3 from Bill Funt at 11:50 pm on Mar 06, 2005

Europeans seem so terrified of being called racist that they're allowing their countries to be taken over by barbarian tribes. Certainly these primitive neighborhoods are centers for organized crime, drug importation and distribution, and international terrorist training and planning.

The rot is advanced. Do the europeans have what it takes to take control of their own countries? Or are they so reticent to admit they have a problem that they will go silently to their own rape and murder?

#4 from Davb Schuler at 12:14 am on Mar 07, 2005

I don't know whether this is on point or not but insofar as there is a problem in Sweden I'm not sure that it can be attributed either to Swedish culture or to a failure to assimilate. The Sami have lived there since before there was a Sweden. They don't assimilate much. They're very non-violent and their crime rates are quite low. Nearly all incidents of criminal violence are related to alcohol abuse.

#5 from USMC at 2:17 am on Mar 07, 2005

Robin

I find it a bit disturbing that equal rights for women across the globe should be tied to the abortion issues at all. Secondly whatever position the US takes regarding abortion within our own borders let alone some other country has absolutely nothing to do with the honor killings and rape of women within the Muslim faith. The issues of which we speak are totally separated. Now maybe I'm reading this all wrong but it sounds to me as if this is a classic case of Sufi Wisdom: Nine or Ten? in which no one wants to give an inch and will settle for nothing less (at least on the abortion issue).

Finally any consensus concerning humane and equal treatment by the UN are simply words without teeth. We certainly get an eyeful of how UN representatives treat people in countries other than their own. The problems concerning sexual impropriety in the Congo are most likely the tip of the iceberg. On that note it is damn hard to get others to agree with a point of view that isn't enforced by example let alone prosecuted in a public forum.

Their is no doubt that the issue of honor killings and rape must be dealt with. Not only on a local / national level but a global level as well. Given that one must understand that in order to change the globe you have to start with the local. Stating the existence of anyone's right, male or female, alone is not ample enough. A structure must be in place to ensure the rights are protected and an enforcement of penalty for those that do not recognize them. Does this mean things in Europe / Sweden have to change? From what I am reading absolutely. How they change things will be of interest. When the public retaliates it will be interesting to see if the Muslim world turns deeper into itself. Allowing for their beliefs to be fostered among themselves and alienating the rest of their societal surroundings. It is not far fetched to think that they could become much like the Gypsy. On the other hand it will also mean a tolerance of their societal surroundings to allow it continue within their own. In this sense we turn a blind eye and we can see how far that has gotten already.

So now we are left with devising solutions that will change a mindset. The first and foremost solution is one of force. When ever such crimes are committed they must be dealt with expediently and within a public forum. If for no other reason it should be done to assure the current populace such crimes are not and will not be tolerated regardless of the social status of the victim or the perpetrator. Immigration policies might have to change to allow for total assimilation on manageable levels. A completion of educational instruction concerning laws and customs could be a requirement for all immigrants. My suggestions may not be the total solution to the problem but they do serve as a starting point.

#6 from jinnderella at 3:14 am on Mar 07, 2005

Robin, right here in Boulder Colderado there have been gang rapes. One fairly well publicized, involved the UC Boulder football team . If you look at wiki, honor-killing is pretty widely represented across the globe.

I am sick to death of people quoting the Qu'ran on rape. It's not in people's culture, it's in their genes .

Here is my "root causes" solution.
A Modest Proposal

#7 from jinnderella at 3:24 am on Mar 07, 2005

I meant Colorado, it isn't really that cold here today. ;)

And there is actually a local euphemism for gang rape. pulling a train

#8 from Kirk Parker at 3:43 am on Mar 07, 2005

I think the (obligatory?) swipe at Bush and American abortion policy is extremely wrong-headed. Where else will these folks find a better ally in the struggle against oppression? Despite our own shortcomings in the US, I'll put us up against the likes of Chiraq or the too-timid leaders of Sweden any day.

#9 from razib at 4:02 am on Mar 07, 2005

some europeans are "waking up." sweden is probably one end of the response spectrum, see neighboring denmark as a contrast.

#10 from USMC at 4:12 am on Mar 07, 2005

jinnderella

Here is my "root causes" solution.

And what do we do to solve this problem?
Local Female Teacher Accused Of Sex With Male Student

And there is actually a local euphemism for gang rape. pulling a train

I wouldn't call that a local euphemism. It is a slang term that seems to prevelant throughout the US.

#11 from scarf at 4:34 am on Mar 07, 2005

Province of Ontario, not state, thanks.
The unfortunate proposal to allow moslem families to handle disputes through binding arbitration using the quoran as the rule book, is the result of do gooders of the liberal and liberal left persuation.
Their rationalization is that this is voluntary, so the woman who does not want her divorce, or whatever, to be handled this way, can say 'no'. As many muslim women have said, a 'no' may not be
realistic in what is actually coercive circumstances. Strangely, the anglo Christian woman, an ex member of cabinet and member of parliament, who made the recommendation to the govt, after studying it at govt request, listened to muslim men instead, who denied that there could ever be such coercion, it was unislamic.
I would point out that, once entered into, the arbitration result would be binding, even though contrary to Canadian law.
The govt is in a bit of a bind because it does allow similar binding arbitration for Orthodox Jews in family matters, a very different community of course.
A further problem for the govt is the incredible growth of the moslem communities in Ontario - the fastest, by a huge margin, of any, mostly from unfettered immigration. They are becoming a powerful force in this province, and you know politicians.
Think of Ontario as Europe north.

#12 from Raymond at 4:49 am on Mar 07, 2005

I too found a reference to a gathering of blood stained leftist feminist marxist gaggle in Bejing to be rather Jaw dropping

The Chinese Constitution also has a garranty of freedom of association and freedom of assembly that rivals ours.

But leftist words dont mean the same thing do they.

Nor do the leftist words from that Bejing conference mean what they say.

Even the hellhole called North Korea has some rather grand sounding principles laid down.

The Consitution of the USSR reads like the pinacle of human rights.

Human rights so honored that they murdered 61+ Million in the USSR and some 50+Million, and counting, in China, and untold millions in North Korea.

And in all these states, you have "confort girls" for the party elite that of course is just a "regular job" like we have seen hint of comming to pass in Germany.

And there is the EuroLeft-TonyBlare risk of prison for anyone that is a "danger to burgulars" or perhaps a danger to rapists.

No that stuff does not happen here because we are not so toxic poisoned with leftist-liberalism, and such thugs are likely get himself a slug thru his head or his crotch.

Our streets are far from crime free, but outside of democrat-controled-all-people-are-unarmed-by-liberals zones the thugs have as more to fear from an armed i-refuse-to-be-a-victim than the police.

I suppose it was the forced babykilling 1 child rule that made the maximum evil marxfeminists so welcome in bejing

And it is certainly the leftist-tainted crap in Eurabia that converted armed citizens into unarmed marks for robbers and rapists.

If the govt really wanted things to get better, then start training females 16 years old and up to use their purse guns with full rights to carry means of self defense.

IN short order, the thugist sort of menfolk would discover a new respect for the pistol packin fair sex, and their natural instinct to protect their younger peers.

Presto, problem solved.

A problem, that cultural marxist goverment (the creator of 99.999% of all problems) created in the first place.

#13 from Robin Burk at 10:49 am on Mar 07, 2005

To respond to several comments here:

First, it certainly is the case that there are rapes, including gang-rapes, in the U.S. If you read this and the previous post, you'll see that I volunteered at a rape support center when I was younger. I'm familiar with the problem here.

That said, the particular problem facing many young women in Sweden and France is that a nexus of culture/religion (as they understand the religion, not as my Muslim friends understand it) does seem to be deeply intwined with the problems in the cites and the Swedish ghettos. If you ignore that, as the Swedes did with their sincere attempts to involve local community leaders in dialogue, you won't solve the situation and you may make things worse for many girls and young women.

I was burned out by the time I wrote this third part, so I didn't spend a lot of time documenting the involvement of women in these communities in the honor violence against their own daughters. But if you have any doubt of the extent of that, go read the handbook and in particular, go read the talks in the proceedings.

The willingness of mothers and sisters to participate directly or indirectly in violence and murder of daughters and sisters is not hormones or poverty - that is an ideology / culture that they are upholding at the expense of girls' lives.

Re: abortion, it should be clear why feminists focus on that issue. One very real way that those males who do wish to control females accomplish that desire is to impregnate them. Availability of abortion negates that power.

(And yes, I know that not all males wish to control females. I'm married to a wonderful and supportive man.)

My point is that to focus on the mechanism of contraception and abortion without reference to the young woman's upbringing, values, and need for family support is at best naive and at worst, verges on complicity with the trap she finds herself in.

Law enforcement is certainly a major issue here. So too is a recognition of the depth and breadth of the problem. The U.S. closed its borders to most immigration for a generation after it was swamped at the beginning of the 20th century. The language used (and perhaps the motives) included prejudice, but it is also the case that at a practical level social institutions such as the public school system needed to be revamped to absorb those who were already here and to integrate them into the wider economic and social life.

I don't know the EU laws, proposed constitution and treaty situation well enough to know what Sweden's options are at this point. NOR AM I SUGGESTING SOME MASS ACTION AGAINST MUSLIM OR OTHER IMMIGRANTS. Let me be unmistakeably clear about that.

Quite the oppposite -- I'm worried that if solutions aren't found, such action will be precipitated. And the influence of fundamentalist Islamacist preachers will only grow among ghettoized, marginalized 2nd generation immigrants if they don't see a real path to a better life.

#14 from Raymond at 1:17 pm on Mar 07, 2005

First, it certainly is the case that there are rapes, including gang-rapes, in the U.S.

Does it have anything to do with the safe-for-rapist zones in the EU created by cultural marxism ?

Is there any hint of equality with the USA? is the compare not in fact intelectually insulting?

Smacks too much of "everybody does it" to me.

The threat of prison to anyone who is a "danger to burglars" and by extension, anyone who dares even think of obstructing a rapist, is rampant in Eurabia, its the end effect of things USA-Liberals (who are economic or cultural marxists or both, the opposite of what a real liberal is) tried to push on us here at home. (but successfull to a large extent in leftist-democrat controled states)

You cant fix the INFERIOR cultures you admit into your midst, but you can reverse the leftist=evil policies that prevent those women from defending themselves if they so choose.

Van Gogh was shot with a Gun before his neck was cut, lot of good that gun law did to protect him eh ? all the gun law did was make sure that he was unable to defend himself.

If Van Gogh lived in Texas, he would not have died begging for his life, he would have perhaps saved it, and sent his attacker on a nonstop instant trip to hell, and in fact, attackers are not quite so bold against those able to defend themselves. the attack would probably not have taken place at all. (except in safe-to-kill-zones-of-unarmed-sheep-ruled-by-democrats)

An armed population is also not of the slave-mind government dependent sheeple weaklings, but are more forcefull minded, they never would have tolerated it getting as bad as it has in Europe.

"As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives [only] moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun, therefore, be the constant companion to your walks." -- Thomas Jefferson, writing to his teenaged nephew.

alse is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. -- Cesare Beccaria, as quoted by Thomas Jefferson's Commonplace book

The disarming of citizens has a double effect, it palsies the hand and brutalizes the mind: a habitual disuse of physical forces totally destroys the moral [force]; and men lose at once the power of protecting themselves, and of discerning the cause of their oppression. -- Joel Barlow 1793

Put simply, an armed population thinks differently, they do not act or think like the helpless and dependent sheeple you see among the disarmed and enslaved.

Hey Robin, what chances does a rapist have when he is facing the dangerous end of a .45acp ?

Down here in Texas, our girls walk around with a lot less fear, and get a lot more respect.

So its nothing surprizing to a Texan like me that creating crime by removing the ability of self defense, and let human nature do the rest, creating a demands on the govt for ever more "protection", that removes ever more freedom and creates ever more danger, untill you a total slave, and danger has reached maximum.

Eurabia is following the automatic decline built in to leftist rule and rules.

#15 from USMC at 2:15 pm on Mar 07, 2005

Robin

"Re: abortion, it should be clear why feminists focus on that issue. One very real way that those males who do wish to control females accomplish that desire is to impregnate them. Availability of abortion negates that power."

Here we are looking for a fix concerning the direct / potential result of the crime. Remove the crime this is a non- issue.

#16 from Robin Burk at 2:39 pm on Mar 07, 2005

Raymond, I agree a .45 changes things. So, for that matter, does a Sig P228 in 9 mm whjch I find easier to shoot well and accurately. ;-)

There's a big stretch from the culture many of these girls have been raised in, however, and having them pack heat. Getting from "here" to "there" would not happen quickly or easily.

USMC, I agree that abortion isn't the only way to negate the power of violent males. It is, however, one that arguable can be in the female's control and not dependent on factors outside of herself, assuming it is available. That's one reason feminists focus on it (rightly or wrongly).

#17 from USMC at 3:07 pm on Mar 07, 2005

Robin

"I agree that abortion isn't the only way to negate the power of violent males. It is, however, one that arguable can be in the female's control and not dependent on factors outside of herself, assuming it is available. That's one reason feminists focus on it (rightly or wrongly)."

At the risk of opening a can worms would you give males the right to demand an abortion when it can be proven that the woman got pregnant due to choice of her own and not his? Just as women choose or choose not to have children should not males have the same choice? It is a sticky slope and weak argument to come to the table with.

#18 from s at 4:10 pm on Mar 07, 2005

This just increases my discomfort with France's banning of head scarves for schoolgirls. If girls are wearing them as protection against violence, then banning them without addressing those issues jsut leaves the girls even more vulnerable.

#19 from Raymond at 4:48 pm on Mar 07, 2005

There's a big stretch from the culture many of these girls have been raised in, however, and having them pack heat. Getting from "here" to "there" would not happen quickly or easily.

Perhaps you under estimate the difference in enviroment when surroundings outside your personal hellhole are filled with empowered pistolpackin women living is a society that would come to bat for them for the very reason it has not become so infected with cultural marxist effeminate pandering in the name of multicultualism and feminist baggage.

These pistol packin babes are no fan of gloria steinem and hanoi jane, dont hate men, and dont buy into all that garbage that raisin kids is somehow an inferior choice in life.

And if you mess with em they will blast a big hole in you.

Is that the kind of society the victims focused on your article is centered on, is surrounded with ?

And the victims are noted to include secular swedes in at least equakl measure, what excuse for them do you have ?

No, ill push again for my point, what happens in sweden might become possible in democrat controled no-guns allowed states or canada as they learn to pander placate and appease, where the only govt anger is against the honest woman that offends the law by carrying protection in violation of leftist laws inacted to create crime and a cycle of government dependence spiraling twoard marxist slavery.

But in Texas, such women will find more support, less willingness to appease, more backbone and less "tolerance", fewer will feel "trapped".

The entire liberal(USA) cultural marxism you can see in its latter stages in Europe, in the UK where you can go to jail if you are a danger to burglars(or rapists) where self defense is a crime.

Im saying that kind of thing just would not fly here. this is not the land of the unarmed and helpless, and we dont think the way they do nor feel powerless the way they do.

Perhaps something like that can happen in the land ruled by the MC Dermits and McMurrays eventually, once their cultural marxist program is in full force.

But not here.

Look to Canada as an intermediate step between Texas USA, and Sweden Eurabia, on the scale of Liberal(USA) madness, as they swallow multicultual poison toxic to the future of their society.

------

(Our bass ackwards terms sure dork up things, In Austrailia the "Liberals" in the USA would be conservative Repubicans, and in the USA the Aussie "labor(communist/marxocrat)" party would be the Democrats and be called "Liberals") Greorge Orwell would have some stern words for our situation, well come to think of it, he already has. Well, at least Austriala has a real Liberal party (the good guys), in the UK all they have for an alternative are the Tories, what a hobsons choice that is.

#20 from Kajsa at 5:00 pm on Mar 07, 2005

I'm Swedish, ethnically. I live in the second largest city in Sweden and I feel more afraid after reading this site than I did yesterday. These mass gang-rapes etc give the impression of a regular occurence on this site. I read the news often, so I have either missed the majority of them or this just seems overwhelming because this site is dealing with that particular issue. There have been a few. A few is too many always.

I do however, recognise some things here. Our politicians are not taking immigration and integration seriously enough. THERE ARE NO VOTES IN IT YET as is the case with Britain this time or as it was with Denmark. Swedes are not that agitated yet and we have taken a lot of immigrants. I don't know if it's out of guilt for being neutral in the 2nd world war or just a natural leftist ideology or if we pride ourselves on being nice in the world. Whatever the case, there has not been political or economic fore-thought of what the limits for this small country is. While Afghanis and Iraqis are being sent back home from many countries in Europe, Sweden is still taking them in. We are actually not helping people by taking them from their homelands and promising them a life that we cannot deliver. I support Immigration and Asylum. But I would like our governments to do two things:
- First, make sure that we can care for these people without destroying it for the Swedes. We would not be able to help anybody if we destroy our own support for Swedes. I cannot see why we should take Iraqis now when things are better and we can actually help them in Iraq to rebuild their lives.
- Make sure that integration starts with accepting Swedish culture.

I don't think that is racist at all. If I'm travelling to Saudi Arabia, I am not going to walk around the streets of S. Arabia in shorts on a half t-shirt showing my belly, which I can do that in Sweden. It is the price I pay for visiting S. Arabia. At the same time, if a muslim comes to Sweden and objects to my scant dressing, they have to deal with it instead of trying to have their own school where Swedes are basically not allowed. They also have to deal with the fact that, here a girl must date and marry who she wants. The parents may object by all means. All parents have that right but not by harming the child. That's where our governments are failing. They are allowing immigrants some rights (non-human rights) that just make it harder for them integrate and harder for them to feel Swedish and harder for Swedes to see them as one of us.

This debate is over-complicated here and everywhere. I think it is simpler. Each government should work out what it can handle sensibly by way of immigration and take in those people who immigrate (I have lived and worked in the US) and those who seek asylum up to that level that is acceptable for the country's size, wealth, culture and structure. Secondly, those who immigrate must conform to the norms of the society they are in. If they break that norm, they will be treated like any Swede that breaks the norm.

My fiance is a model immigrant. He learned the language as soon as possible, made friends with Swedes, works hard, does volunteer work for Swedish charities, celebrates Swedish traditions as well as his own but yet his identity is still pretty strong. He is black and stands out but he is treated by many Swedes as one of them so it's not a colour or race thing - at least for the majority. It is about Swedes seeing this acceptance of their values. He happens to be Christian. I wonder if he would done differently if he was moslem.

I agree that ideological-based rape or violence against women is more dangerous than other criminal rape or violence against women. Same punishment and same crime but when based on ideology, it has more probability to attract more offenders so it must be tackled with more urgency.

I'm afraid that a .45 isn't as attractive an idea as it first seems. If we are allowed .45, then the rapists will have them too. Remember many girls do escape incidents by running or breaking free. A .45 would leave them dead on their bid for freedom. It may also kill some rapists before they start but I find it more acceptable that the majority of the parties in rape cases (victim and perpetrator) stay alive after the incident to be incarcerated or counselled back to normal life. I would, however, support less lethal defence equipment like gas. As Americans, you should all know that guns haven't made your society safer, it just leads to more deaths per incident than anywhere else. Guns actually do make some people FEEL safer, which is nice (although they are not actually safer) and make others feel paranoid. My little European view is that it's unncessary.

#21 from USMC at 5:03 pm on Mar 07, 2005

Raymond

"There's a big stretch from the culture many of these girls have been raised in, however, and having them pack heat. Getting from "here" to "there" would not happen quickly or easily."

Robin makes a valid argument on this point. Your view of the gun solves all problems and leaves no doubt is weak at this stage.

Just a thought. Say we arm them all. Next thing you know they are killing not only women of their own faith but women not of their faith because they don't believe in honor killings, chastisement, and punishment for not following their credo / ism. Which one now becomes worse?

#22 from jinnderella at 5:08 pm on Mar 07, 2005

USMC, c'mon, my Modest Proposal is in the spirit of Swift's. Not a viable solution, but a mock to emphasize the problem facing us.
Are you actually equivalancing the seduction of pubescent males by female teachers with honor killings and gang-rapes?
Sho, my upbringing is a little insular, i didn't encounter the "pulling a train" reference until i was in college. But that story is exemplary of institutionalized, ceremonial rape, like Robin was talking about. One of the girls involved became pregnant, and paternity tests were performed. Look at the cultural problems the U Colorado football department is facing to this day.
My point is, I am dubious that root causes can be attacked on these issues. A better approach would be some sort of outreach program to mosques by local churches, employment programs, after school sports programs. Education. Sure, Islam is a hateful, bizarre anachronistic institution that is causing all these problems /sarc/, but how do you address fixing the problem? Deportation? Immigration quotas? Apartheid?

#23 from Raymond at 5:32 pm on Mar 07, 2005

USMC

What makes you think they cant get all the guns they want?

Did the gun laws make the bullet holes in Van Goghs body fail to appear ? no, but sure hampered his ability to defend himself.

The entire anti gun argument is based on lies.

The problem with leftist illogic, is that to avoid a few fringe cases, it subjects the 99.999% of all the rest to the undesireable side effects.

And the marxist programe to create crime and a cycle of govt dependency, rinse recyle repeat untill you are totaly a marxist slave in a police state, where the thugs doing the killing and raping, is now in the employ of the state, depends on that undesirable side effect.

The left see a few bad parents and then argue against parental rights for everyone, they have a exception parade of a few abuse cases, then remove all good parents, (the 99,999% everyone) ability to disapline their kids. and then use the effects of the weaker controls on behavior to remove more parental authority, rinse recycle repeat, untill children are wards of the state.

At every level, leftism is wrong, and we deal with leftist created problems, in many cases, after the original "problem" all this leftist infection was supposed to "fix" is long forgotten.

I understand the Swedish lady, a disarmed publics thinking becomes altered, little by little they lose the ability to remember the days when they handled the responsibilities of freedom just fine.

And yes, your problems began with disarmament of the public.

Has man biologically devolved along with the cultural marxist program? or is he the same creature that carried his rifle at age 15, back when the typical boy and his gun was not seen as a threat.

The more responsibility you surrender, the more irresponsible will become your society, untill finally you are the slave-minds of a police state who lacks even the cultural memory of a time when he was in charge of his own life.

Im seeing that very thing in the response from you, as if you consider beyond mans ability today, what he had no problem with before.

We are the same creatures today as then, all we need to do is purge the leftist poison and rediscover our capacity to be responsible armed freemen, feared by despots and knaves alike.

#24 from USMC at 5:50 pm on Mar 07, 2005

Jinnderella

"Are you actually equivalancing the seduction of pubescent males by female teachers with honor killings and gang-rapes?"

Not at all. Honor killing is murder period. Rape is rape period. Matters not if it is a gang or singular crime it is rape. Matters not if rape is committed with violence or the silver tongue. Bottom line is rape is a crime. Should we focus on one particular group when it comes to rape. Sure if that is where the majority of rape occurs. Should we neglect or turn a blind eye to those areas we believe are less prone or not as prominent? Absolutely not. The issue is to solve the problem of rape period. It is in this vein that Raymond's line of thought bears some weight. Equal protection for all based on self protection. It does not however address situations concerning minors or those of less mature / developed minds.

"Sure, Islam is a hateful, bizarre anachronistic institution that is causing all these problems /sarc/, but how do you address fixing the problem? Deportation? Immigration quotas? Apartheid?"

If that is what it takes to solve the problem of rape within a society then absolutely. Nothing should be considered off the board to resolve the issue.

"Sho, my upbringing is a little insular, i didn't encounter the "pulling a train" reference until i was in college"

Here's the problem with the tagging slang to specific behavior. Slang never portrays the gravity of the situation. In more cases than not it lessens the offense in such a way as to make light of the situation or make it seem more palatable. Slang as well as PC speech have this uncanny way of twisting the tide making things worse instead of better.

#25 from USMC at 6:05 pm on Mar 07, 2005

Raymond

I'm not arguing against gun ownership or an individuals rights to carry a firearm. I'm with you 100% as far as gun ownership goes. Where I disagree with you is in arming everyone and letting the chips fall where they may. Arm everyone and possibly the Darwinian theory will win out but at what expense? Your assumption is that this in fact will solve the rape issue. My assumption is that it will not. Sure an adult can learn to handle a weapon and use if effectively. In a sense though I view guns in the same manner I view locks. They are meant to keep honest people honest. Those that have a propensity to commit crimes will commit them regardless if everyone is armed or not.

#26 from Raymond at 6:45 pm on Mar 07, 2005

USMC

Correct, it dont fix instantly everything and all cases.

But I think I made the case, that our Texas culture of confident pistol packin ladies (and all that comes with that) has profound effects.

Simply put, the only problems we are seeing here with our own muslim communities are in areas controled by democrats, (and all that comes with that) and our democrats are not as far culturally marxist advanced ( or rather their leftist programe is not is in as great an effect as in Europe)

One problem you can see being setup to import Europes problems into America is in michigan where you can now hear the Muslim call to prayer as of you have been transported from America to Mecca.

Another is the evil marxocrats that kicked the Boy Scouts out of a Federal parkland so that the Saudi Government could move in and build a Camp Madrassa

(the evil left really hate the scouts refusal to take in piedophiles, and there are those politically incorrect moral values, Hating America is a value the left respects however, so out with the scouts and in come the Mullahs.)

The left are desperately attempting to import the problems Europe is having into the USA, with some success in the democrat ruled zones of pre-disarmed-ready-to-rape women they rule over.

Im saying there is an entire cultural factor of an armed public that goes beyond a womans ability to defend herself, profound positive effects radiate outward from that, even onto the cases where you say there may be no benift.

Nay I say, the positive effects will effect even cases where you think might be exceptions.

Less dispair, less feeling of powerlessness, more of a culture of can-do, at every level the effects are positive and they extend far beyond self defense.

The entire enviroment is safer, all you need to do is have the smarts to resist the marxists using their parade of freaks and exceptions and using them to convince the other 99% of you to surrender freedom due to a few freaks. who wants to live in the world devolved down to accomidate the freaks ?

Thats that the marxist program has been doing to us. its what they did to Europe.

Its time to tell them to stuff it.

Freedom is better, the leftist detours are all provem mistakes and failures, in most areas of the USA, leftist evil is beginning to be rolled back, if Europe cannot follow, and decides to slide the rest of the way into total leftist caused collapse. i really dont see much we can do to help them, other than leadership by example.

#27 from Raymond at 7:00 pm on Mar 07, 2005

Where I disagree with you is in arming everyone and letting the chips fall where they may.

Like in America ?

Its in the DemoMarxocrat no gun zones that the problems are.

Who in America cant have as many guns as they want on short notice ? and no matter where in the country they are.

But look where the bulk of the problems are, they are in the democrat contolled areas of gun restrictions where the honest are helpless by law.

More guns less problems, the gun laws created the problems, and as the gun laws grew the problems grew.

You are arguing in direct conflict with the history of America.

And yes, in Europe where gun laws are even worse the problems are even worse.

Not to mention the really huge negative impact on the freedom thing, the amount of arrogance a goverment shows twoard its own people, example Europe, where they now tolerate levels of malfesanmce and corruption that would send army tanks out in our streets, in SUPPORT of, not against, the outraged Americans.

And you know that is not stretching it either.

#28 from a at 3:25 am on Mar 08, 2005

Raymond, could you stop the "If there were only guns than everything would be solved." nonsense.
South Africa has more guns than the US and it has more gangrapes than the whole of Europe.

USMC, it does matter what kind of rape it is. The perportrator who does the strange-man-in-the-bushes rape is different from a gangraper. The last one is normally a youth without parental supervision.
Most of the muslim parents come from really backwards regions in countries who are already not known for their modern ways so effective supervision in a modern enviroment like Sweden is probably asking a lot from them.

#29 from USMC at 10:43 am on Mar 08, 2005

"USMC, it does matter what kind of rape it is."

Are you trying to tell me one rape should be punished differently than the other? Are you trying to tell me the victims feel differently because of different circumstances? As I said before and I'll say it again Rape is Rape period regardless of circumstance or who commits it.

#30 from Robin Burk at 1:59 pm on Mar 08, 2005

USMC, I'm not sure I agree, at least with the first part.

Are you trying to tell me the victims feel differently because of different circumstances?

I suspect that rape which is committed by neighbors and perhaps relatives, for which one receives no support by one's mother and sisters, and which is explicitly tied to a failure to adopt strict Islamicist dress and behavior rules ... the victims of such rapes do indeed feel differently than if it were a random attack by a stranger.

#31 from USMC at 8:05 pm on Mar 08, 2005

Robin

The only difference in feeling I would have is one of betrayal on top of the feeling of violation. Being raped by anyone be it stranger or family would not change my feelings about personal violation.

#32 from USMC at 8:06 pm on Mar 08, 2005

Robin

Nor would it change my thoughts about punishment be it stranger or family.

#33 from Joe A at 10:17 pm on Mar 08, 2005

Nice to read a Swedish opinion on this matter, Kajsa (#20)

First, make sure that we can care for these people without destroying it for the Swedes. We would not be able to help anybody if we destroy our own support for Swedes [...]
Make sure that integration starts with accepting Swedish culture

Accepting Swedish culture... Does that mean, for instance, that an inmigrant, as he arrives to Sweden, must sign some kind of contract stipulating that he will eat at least a determined amount of smoked fish per year? or drinking a minimum quantity of beer? What if he does not like smoked fish or he prefers wine? Will Swedish parliament legislate for inmigrant likings? Why don't also legislate for the rest of the citizens' likings?

I am Spanish, and I don't like many things of the Spanish culture: for example, I don't like bullfighting. I join demonstrations against it, I make public that I disagree. Can the European, National, Regional or Local government legislate against my displeasure, and force me to stay at home and watch bullfighting on TV? What if many Spaniards think like me? Bullfighting, a part of our culture, will be in danger!

No government that is protecting freedom among it citizens can legislate for likings. Inmigrants may accept the culture of their host country if they like it, or more precisely (I don't know what a culture is), they will accept the traditions, manners and tastes they like. In the process, everybody, nationals and inmigrants, will influence those traditions, manners and tastes.

They are allowing immigrants some rights (non-human rights) that just make it harder for them integrate and harder for them to feel Swedish and harder for Swedes to see them as one of us.

It is an habit in Europe to call a privilege a right. Socialist ideology. A right is not granted and anyone is endowed, as it was wrote by Jefferson 230 years ago (#1, All men are created equal...). A privilege is granted by someone (usually the ruler) to some citizens, and is always a harm to the majority.

Each government should work out what it can handle sensibly by way of immigration and take in those people who immigrate [...] and those who seek asylum up to that level that is acceptable for the country's size, wealth, culture and structure.

Good. That may work in Sweden, far from the limes of the new Roman Empire, but not in many other countries. The inmigrants will enter the country either legally or illegally. In the Gibraltar Strait many get drowned, but they keep trying.

Secondly, those who immigrate must conform to the norms of the society they are in. If they break that norm, they will be treated like any Swede that breaks the norm.

Again Socialist ideology. What is a norm? No person, muslim, buddhist, christian, jew, black, white, yellow, red, socialist, libertarian, communist... can be punished if he or she does not break the law (I hope). Laws are set to defend freedoms, not to protect likings.

In the end, this post shows one of the reasons why freedom can not be complete accepted in Europe: it means a danger to old traditions and languages. Your way of thinking may not be harmful in Sweden, Kajsa, Swedish are advanced people, but in Spain some of those ideas are shared by Basque and Catalonian nationalists, and they kill us.

#34 from a at 10:48 pm on Mar 08, 2005

#29

Not for the victim or what you do after the fact, the jailterm etc. But it does matter what you do to try to prevent it. I should have made that clear

#35 from Rori Bell at 10:48 pm on May 19, 2005

bq At the risk of opening a can worms would you give males the right to demand an abortion when it can be proven that the woman got pregnant due to choice of her own and not his? Just as women choose or choose not to have children should not males have the same choice? It is a sticky slope and weak argument to come to the table with.

I think in cases of consensual sex, the man's right is in whether he has sex with the woman or not. The woman has done nothing wrong, so she retains her rights. However, in cases of non-consensual sex, i.e., where the woman is guilty of a crime, you might have a case. I can only imagine that court battle, though.