Welcome! This briefing will be looking hard at the dark places the mainstream media sometimes seem determined to look away from, to better understand our declared enemies on their own terms and without illusions. Our goal is to bring you some of the top jihadi rants, idiotarian seething, and old-school Jew-hatred from around the world, leaving you more informed, more aware, and pretty disgusted every month. This Winds of Change.NET HateWatch briefing is brought to you by Lewy14, and by zorkmidden of Discarded Lies. Past briefings and posts on related topics can be found here. Entil'zha veni!
HIGHLIGHTED TOPICS
- Religious Hate: Taliban wannabe testifies against cleric recruiter; Sufi’s gone jihad in Iraq; China persecuting Muslims; Pakistan mob kills 'blasphemer'; Hamas’ vice and virtue squad murders Gaza co-ed; Islamists disrupt election campagn – in Britain; Gay lashing (sic) in Saudi Arabia; Book calls Norwegians 'Satan's sons'; Mormons still baptising Jews; “We will control the land of the Vatican” claims Saudi Imam.
- Idiotarian Seethings: German Green: Bush pushed pedophilia scandal to weaken pope; Nazi prof fired – for skipping class; 9/11 conspiracy theory pedaled at Winsconsin; MacKinnon compares women's murders to 9/11.
- Race and Culture: PA textbooks teach Protocols as history; Anti-Semitic literature in Russian religious bookstores; Anti-Semite hosted by British Lord; Britain’s main student representative organization is not addressing the issue of anti-Semitism on campus; Anti-Japanese protests in Shanghai; Anti-Kurdish propaganda in Turkey; Neo-Nazi to speak to Islamic group in Florida; Aussi Sheikh: rape victims have it coming.
- A Hopeful Note: Afghani women participate in parliamentary elections; Saudi woman condemns chauvinism; Disco era star sings in Dubai.
- Ali Al-Timimi is an Islamic scholar on trial in Virginia for recruiting Muslims to join the Taliban. One of them, Yong Ki Kwon, a South Korean immigrant and Muslim convert, was part of the “Virginia paintball jihad” network and was urged by Al-Timimi to go to Pakistan to train to join the Taliban in the wake of the 9/11 attacks.
Then, [immediately after 9/11] Kwon said, Al-Timimi advised the group that the effort to spread Islam in the United States was over and that the only other options open to them were to repent, leave the U.S. and join the mujahadeen -- the holy warriors preparing to defend Afghanistan against the coming U.S. invasion. Four days later, Kwon was on the plane to Pakistan, embarking on a jihad that would land him in prison. "I made the decision to go, but (Al-Timimi) was a big part of my decision to go," Kwon said.
Kwon has plead guilty and is testifying against Al-Timimi.Where does religious freedom end and treason begin? This WaPo article on the Al-Timimi trial provides some background on the legal standard:That opinion [Brandenburg v. Ohio, 1969] says the government cannot forbid "advocacy of the use of force" unless that advocacy is intended or likely to produce "imminent lawless action.''
Leaving Al-Timimi with the “just kidding” defense, I suppose…"The key," said Rebecca Glenberg, legal director for the ACLU of Virginia, "is whether Timimi's speech was likely to cause others to act and whether he intended it to cause them to act.''
- Sufism is commonly cited as a tolerant, mystical current in Islam, and I will testify to the wisdom of the teachings we feature here on “Good News Saturdays” here at Winds of Change. Yet proving that the sword of stereotypes is indeed two edged, Robert Spencer links to a piece on Jihad Unspun containing the following statement from the “Sufi Jihadi Squadrons of Shaykh ‘Abd al-Qadir al-Gilani”
“With the blessings of God the Exalted it has been announced in the capital of Harun ar-Rashid [Baghdad] today that the Jihadi Sufi Squadrons of Shaykh ‘Abd al-Qadir al-Gilani have been formed to join the rest of their brothers on the fields of combat against the tyrant America, drawing inspiration from the life of the Messenger of God [Muhammad] – may blessings and peace be upon him – and his lessons and teachings, and marching along one line together with the rest of the Jihadi Resistance organizations until such time as your Lord decrees the expulsion of the occupier from the occupied territory of Iraq.”
The Squadrons are late to the party – sixty four Sunni clerics have issued a fatwa approving membership in the Iraqi security forces. I’ve got my own ideas on what’s motivating the “Sufi Squadrons” but I’d like to hear from others.
- China is being accused by human rights groups of a "crushing campaign of religious repression" against minority Muslims: Terrorism 'used as excuse for China to crush Muslims'
Activities effectively banned include teaching children religion, even privately, singing traditional songs at school, marking religious festivals in state institutions and publishing anything about Islam that does not "uphold the Marxist point of view of religion".
As a result almost half of those jailed without trial in the area's labour camps are there for religious reasons.
- Pakistan's blasphemy laws at work once again: Pakistan mob kills 'blasphemer'. In Pakistan, the death penalty is mandatory for anyone convicted of blasphemy. Over the last 15 years or so, dozens of Pakistanis have been charged with blasphemy.
- Here’s a sneak preview of life in Gaza under Hamas:
Hamas has begun operating a "vice and virtue commando" in the Gaza Strip to safeguard Islamic values, Palestinian security officials and residents told The Jerusalem Post. The new force, called the Anti-Corruption Unit, is believed to be behind the gruesome murder over the weekend of Yusra al-Azzami, a 22-year-old university student from the northern Gaza Strip. Her "crime" was that she was seen in public with her fiance.
The subsequent description of her murder and mutilation is horrific. This action is extreme even by the standards of Saudi Arabia or Iran, and apparently Hamas has admitted its mistake in the ensuing outrage. But while arguably not religiously orthodox or authentic, the killings and beatings were undeniably religiously inspired. Spencer notes that Hamas has the chutzpah to claim the woman they killed as a “martyr” for their cause. Yusra al-Azzami belonged to Hamas herself.
- Spare some sympathy for George Galloway: he was attacked and threatened by an Islamist mob while campaigning.
The men said they were angry at Mr Galloway's attempt to woo Muslim voters. They said they were "setting up the gallows" for him and warned any Muslim who voted for his anti-war Respect party that they faced a "sentence of death".
Democracy itself is heresy, you see, and anyone attempting to “woo” Muslims to vote is subject to sanction. The article goes on to describe another attack by Muslim radicals on a press conference of the mainstream Muslim Council of Britain.
- Jihadwatch links to known neo-con mouthpiece The Guardian for an article describing the aftermath of what must have been one heck of a party. One hundred and five men have been sentenced to up to two years in prison in Saudi Arabia for “behaving and dancing like women”. Lashings were also mandated (2000 lashes apiece for four of them). Gay rights, like a lot of rights, aren’t terribly well recognized in the Kingdom.
- Book calls Norwegians 'Satan's sons'
A book that's quietly being distributed within Norway's Muslim community refers to Norwegians as the sons of Satan. The book, written by an anonymous author, has been turned over to police by Oslo's Anti-Racism Center.
Muslim politicians have joined the effort to get the book labelled as illegal, on the grounds it violates Norwegian law against racist expression.
In addition to associating Norwegians with the devil, the book lashes out at Norwegian ethics and morality. The author, believed to be a mullah or other Muslim religious leader living in Oslo, claims that Norwegians don't have legitimate children. "They're conceived here and there," claims the author.
- This probably doesn't fall under religious hatred but it's insulting that some people are just intent on baptising Jews, no matter what: Jews, Mormons to Examine Proxy Baptisms
Researchers found the names of Holocaust victims in the church's massive index more than a decade ago. After Jewish leaders protested, the two sides signed an agreement in 1995, and about 380,000 names of Holocaust victims were removed.
They came out of the meeting agreeing to stop this practice and let's hope they stick to it this time. The Catholic Church has stated that Jews can achieve salvation through the Torah. Perhaps other churches can take a hint?
The agreement also called for no further proxy baptisms of Holocaust victims, celebrities or people who are not relatives of those seeking the baptism.
But Jewish leaders claim Mormons continue to posthumously baptize Jews and Holocaust victims. They said the meetings Sunday and Monday followed a decade of frustration over what they called broken promises.
The 1995 agreement also called for the removal of Jewish names in the index. But Mormon officials maintained Monday the agreement didn't guarantee vicarious baptisms for deceased Jews would never occur.
- Also not "hatred" per se, but offensive nonetheless: Joe Katzman notes the predictions of the conquest of Rome made by a Saudi cleric and other prominent Muslims, and goes on to round up some key articles on the future of relations between Christianity and Islam.
- Omri Cerin links to a David’s Medienkritik post on German Green party member Antje Vollmer’s latest brainstorm: quoting Spiegel Online,
"Germany's highest ranking female member of parliament has a new theory: the US government set the Catholic pedophilia scandal in motion because it wanted to weaken an already frail pope. That's also why it made Poland its chief partner in the Iraq war: to make the Vatican look bad. Yeah right.
My recollection is that the scandal predates the war, and was driven by the victims, not the president.
- Via LGF, this Weekly Standard piece by Dean Barnett details the firing of one Jacques Pluss, former adjunct professor if history at Fairleigh Dickinson University. Professor Pluss has some interesting extracurricular affiliations:
Pluss is a Nazi, a genuine bona-fide Hitler-adoring, Jew-hating Nazi. The National Socialist website that advertises his title as an officer of the Movement features images of Adolf Hitler and swastikas and urges visitors to "come and join the fight!"
But the Dean, John Snyder, wants you to know that it was unexcused absences from class, not, you know, being a Nazi and stuff, that prompted the firing. God forbid. But Barnett concludes with this:And why is it such a far-fetched concept in the vast marketplace of academia that individual universities would be willing to step up and say, "We draw a bright line between what's acceptable and what is not." For instance, it's hard to imagine Fairleigh Dickinson suffering much of a public relations hit were it to proudly announce, "Neo-Nazi faculty are not welcome here." And yet, in academia, there is a curious reluctance to make such a forceful statement.
Some however, including regular contributors to this blog, will attest that academic discrimination on political grounds does occur.
- Yet another “9/11 was a Bushco production” seminar, this time at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and featuring “Christian theologist” Dr. David Griffin
Griffin's speech addressed his own compiled evidence that suggests the attacks were not only known about by the United States government and military, but orchestrated in order to expand an "American empire" allegedly based on oil and power.
Griffin goes on to review many of the same tired theories that have been debunked. Judging by the lingering conspiracy theory over Roosevelt and Pearl Harbor, don’t expect these idiots to go away any time soon.
- Glenn Reynolds links to Reason Online’s summary of Catharine MacKinnon’s latest nuggets of wisdom. MacKinnon spoke at Stanford last Thursday, comparing the murder of women in this country to September 11:
“Just like terrorist attacks, acts of violence against women are carefully planned, targeted at civilians and driven by ideology.” [emphasis mine]
Comparing the numbers, rougly three thousand women are murdered each year - a sad statistic for sure. But by invoking 9/11, MacKinnon appears to claim that ideology is to blame for these murders. All? Most? I doubt the killers of most women are members of a conspiracy to avenge the patriarchy, but I could be wrong...
- New PA Text Books Teach Anti-Semitic Forgery as History
The book in question is a 10th grade history book called, “History of Modern and Contemporary World." The section cited by Minister Sharansky appears on page 63 of the book, which is already in use in PA schools.
“The presentation of the Protocols in a false manner is particularly severe due to the fact that it has seen renewed popularity," Sharansky said. "New editions of the book have been widely printed in Syria and Egypt, and it is available in book stores and on the internet throughout the Muslim world."
- Anti-Semitic books in Russian Orthodox bookstores: Anti-Semitic literature in Orthodox Church bookstore
A book entitled “Enemies of Russia and the Slavic World Against Belarus and President A. G. Lukashenko” has just been put on sale in the “Orthodox Book” store in Minsk. The authors of the book focus on what they call a Jewish conspiracy to overthrow President Lukashenko during next year’s presidential elections, a la recent events in Ukraine, Georgia and Kyrgyzstan. Opposition politicians are “exposed” as hidden Jewish agents of this conspiracy.
- Via LGF, Stephen Pollard condemns an anti-Semitic author Jöran Jermas. Jermas spoke a book launching event at Britain’s House of Lords and hosted by Lord Ahmed, the first Muslim life peer. From the speech:
“In the Middle East we have just one reason for wars, terror and trouble — and that is Jewish supremacy drive . . . in Iraq, the US and its British dependency continue the same old fight for ensuring Jewish supremacy in the Middle East.”
More from Jermas’ website comes this:The Ashkenazi Jews believed that spilled Jewish blood has a magic effect of calling down Divine Vengeance on the heads of the Gentiles . . . The picture of Jews slaughtering children for cultic reasons exerted huge impact on the Christian peoples of Europe.”
Pollard’s failed efforts to obtain any condemnation of this man is telling. Is this the “new normal” for political discourse in Britain, where anti-Semites like Jermas make such speeches without a negative word from their hosts or the party leadership?
- Jewish students say U.K. groups ignore anti-Semitic acts on campus. Britain’s main student representative group is not taking action against anti-Semitic leaflets distributed on campus — including one that cited the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and compared the Jewish people to the Nazis.
- Now it’s their protest, but if you ask me, “Kill the Japanese” is a poor slogan to protest militarism with.
SHANGHAI, China - About 20,000 anti-Japanese protesters — some shouting "kill the Japanese" — rampaged through Shanghai on Saturday, stoning Japan's consulate and smashing cars and shops in protest over Tokyo's bid for a permanent U.N. Security Council seat and perceived whitewashing of wartime atrocities.
The Shanghai riots were technically “illegal”, but were more accommodated than curtailed by the police. Via Instapundit, Ian Hamet provides this report and analysis of the protests:It was the payoff of decades of anti-Japanese propaganda in the school systems here. Pretty much anyone you ask will say he hates Japan and the Japanese, and takes personal offense at the way Japanese schools teach World War II. Even if he has Japanese friends. And a Japanese mobile phone. And digicam. And reads manga. And watches anime.
Ian invokes Machiavelli and Vulcan 3D chess as metaphors; I’d suggest this was an exercises in tiger riding by the ruling Chinese oligarchy, with all the attendant perils. There will likely be more.
- I read this and didn't know what to believe. Makes great anti-Kurdish propaganda though: Kurdish Workers' Party (PKK) trades in human blood
- Don’t get me wrong – Christians and Muslims getting together and reaching a common understanding is generally a good thing, but when the “Christian” in question (William Baker) is a neo-Nazi, I’m less supportive. Baker is to speak at a banquet April 30 held by the Assadiq Islamic Education Foundation in Boca Raton. Can I wonder what the Assadiq Foundation is thinking here? Charles Johnson has more on this proponent of Christian/Muslim extremist syncretism.
- Stop, I’ve heard this one before:
“Every minute in the world a woman is raped, and she has no one to blame but herself, for she has displayed her beauty to the whole world,” Sheikh Feiz Muhammad told a packed public meeting in the Bankstown Town Hall last month. “Strapless, backless, sleeveless - they are nothing but satanical. Mini-skirts, tight jeans - all this to tease men and to appeal to (their) carnal nature.”
It must be said that these repugnant sentiments are not limited to Muslims. Further on in the article, author Pamela Bone asks:A non-Muslim religious leader making public comments far milder than the above would be forced to resign. If a Muslim leader's words are to be simply overlooked (perhaps nothing better can be expected?) is this itself not a kind of racism?
Pamela’s article is clear headed and thoughtful: read the whole thing. Also see this account of young women living on the fault line in the clash of cultures.
- I had hoped that the first thing to happen after the fall of the Taleban would be that Afghani women would take off the burqa. But I suppose voting is not so bad either: Burqa no barrier for Afghan women poll candidates in Taleban heartland
She can’t leave the house without an all-covering blue burqa, many of her relatives are scandalised, but Shahida Hussain is preparing to stand for parliament anyway.
The 50-year-old women’s rights activist who lives in the Taleban spiritual heartland of Afghanistan is one of at least two women in the southern city of Kandahar who are preparing to stand for elections in Afghanistan’s parliamentary polls on September 18.
- Saudi author Wajiha Al-Huweidar writes at elaph.com about [the lack of] woments rights in the Arab world, and how change may come about:
"It is known that in the Muslim countries the system permitting buying and selling slaves was abolished, as was the jizya [poll tax] system imposed on the dhimmi s – the Jews and the Christians – from the Islamic conquests until the last century. This is despite the fact that there are still religious texts that permit slave trading and thepoll tax – but both of these were suppressed so that [Muslims] could act according to [modern values]…
While some may argue about the accuracy of the term “abolished” above, the idea is a good one, even if she faces an uphill battle against some of her co-religionists. Many other pieces in this MEMRI compilation, some decidedly unhopeful. Read the whole thing."These practices were abolished years ago, and people have forgotten them... because they violated civil and human rights… It is also time to abolish all chauvinistic interpretations that incite to violence, discriminate, and persecute women, and deprive them of their rights..."
- I’ve already asked for sympathy for Galloway, so I suppose I’m pushing it by asking for sympathy for Disco:
Gloria Gaynor will be singing her hit "I Will Survive" in Dubai only nine days after she sang it Monday at a pro-Israel rally in Paris. But in a sign of changing times, Muslim visitors and residents of Dubai said they could not care less.
In a world where European academics and some American church leaders are advocating boycotts of Israel, apparently some in the middle east have turned a corner.
Why is no one mentioning that on April 19th Kuwait gave women the vote, and the ability to seek election to public office? Guess it made so little of a wave since women's issues are so minor to gentlemen of the newsrooms.
If the most widely read periodical in the Islamic world did a front page puff-piece on an Islamic hatemonger, would it be reported here?
If so, and if this is really a "hatewatch", and not just another festival of Muslim-bashing, why is there no mention of Time Magazine providing one of America's leading hatemongers with a puff piece and a front page picture?
The Squadrons are late to the party – sixty four Sunni clerics have issued a fatwa approving membership in the Iraqi security forces. I’ve got my own ideas on what’s motivating the “Sufi Squadrons” but I’d like to hear from others.
like most right-wing hatemongering sites, you never tell your readers about the conditions set by the Sunni clerics --- specifically, that joining the security forces is authorized only if "does not support the occupier of his country." The fatwa also requires that he "adheres to serving his religion."
Indeed, the most logical interpretation of the fatwa is that the clerics were authorizing the formation of Sunni militias under the guise of "Iraqi military and police forces" whose purpose would be to maintain civil order in Sunni areas. There is no reason to believe that there has been a significant change in the position of the clerics as regards the occupation --- and good reason to believe that the goal may be to form non-covert Sunni military/security units that can be used in the event that the situation demands it.
If this is a "rightwing hatemongering" site, why do you participate in it so much?
Patrick
Why does P.L. come here so often to cast his pearls of wisdom before us ignorant right-wing swine? Probably becuse in his mind it reinforces his illusory sense of moral and intellectual superiority. His constant ad hominem attacks certainly can't be designed to persuade anyone of anything.
If this is a "rightwing hatemongering" site, why do you participate in it so much?
because there are a few members of the increasingly rare species known as "intelligent conservatives" who frequent this site --- and I appreciate their perspectives and insights.
Basically, I find myself wading through the droppings of pigeons that dominate the habitat of an endangered species in order to catch a glipse of a rare bird --- its unpleasant, and one feels compelled to frequently scrape the pigeon droppings off one's shoes despite knowing that the droppings are unavoidable here.
p.l... I suspect you aren't the only one who feels they have to scrape stuff off their shoes as they read here. Perhaps not for the same reason, though. You might be unpleasantly surprised at the response your tone is getting from fellow liberals, who resent being made to look like bilious, adolescent, know-nothings by association.
A lot of progressives have worked hard over the years to give our movement its reputation for justice, and caring, and thoughtfulness, and intelligence. You're blowing it.
If you aren't really some kind of Republican plant from a college frat or campus club (and believe me, I wonder...), kindly do us liberals a favour and do your scraping in the privacy of your own home.
Then we can focus on removing Raymond, and restoring some intelligent discourse.
More happily... Ruth, I'm sure they welcome additions - got an URL? It says up above to email to hatewatch@...
because there are a few members of the increasingly rare species known as "intelligent conservatives" who frequent this site ...
... as opposed to the burgeoning population of "intelligent liberals," I'm sure.
Ruth, That is indeed good news. I remember hearing something about that being in the works in Kuwait, but like you, I haven't seen anything about its actual passage. But I have a feeling it got overlooked because there's more money in reporting booms in Iraq and twists in the Michael Jackson case rather than because of gender bias in the news.
If you aren't really some kind of Republican plant from a college frat or campus club ...
why do I suspect that you are projecting here?
Fred:
I hope you're right, it's monumental of course to me, so maybe I don't see how anyone can just overlook such a huge step into the light - maybe from being in the dark.
p.lukasiak - you're done posting in this thread. Subsequent posts by you will be deleted. I don't have to read your invective and insults, because that's all you offer.
Ruth,
I missed the story on Kuwait - sorry. I agree it is significant and some welcome news. This story is pretty representative of the stories out there on the subject. One detail which didn't get much discussion is that women will be allowed to stand for municipal council elections, but no mention is made of parliamentary elections.
Lewy, I want to be perfectly clear that my comment #9 was directed at the MSM and not you.
POd:
You said: "More happily... Ruth, I'm sure they welcome additions - got an URL? It says up above to email to hatewatch@..."
Thanks, yes, my URL is the same as listed, and I'm happy to contribute.
Lewy14:
Thanks, yes, that is getting civilized, isn't it. Appreciate your adding this Great Leap Forward to your roundup. And I'm glad to bring it up. I hope that contribution is my strong suit. And I knew very well Fred wasn't referring to this post as 'following the $$' or the MJ trial. Is that still going on? I hope not.
Well, here's something that has me stumped, and I'd sure appreciate someone helping me suss out what's going on. In view of the web-wide indignation over the Churchill case, and the recent postings about Richard Lamm's rejected article at DU, for what were obviously ideological reasons, why is it that everyone seems to terminally lethargic about the case of Jean R. Cobbs? In case you missed it, She's a conservative black woman who was targeted by the black liberal establishment at Virginia State University, clearly for her advocacy of conservative causes and candidates.
I bring this up not in anger, but in genuine consternation. Not only has no one picked up this story from my postings either on my site or on the Jawa Report, or from the press releases of the Virginia Association of Scholars over a period of years, but members of Winds of Change, some of whom I've known for years and have met in person, haven't even bothered to respond to emails I've sent about the case? So little time and so much to do, I suppose.
I hate to say it, but is this an example of some weird exotic form of race discrimination whereby people tend to feel that "black problems ought to remain in the black community?" Because if that's the case I assure you that there are quite a few white faculty at Virginia State University who are impacted by the "soft totalitarianism" there, not to mention the students. And it's certainly of a piece with the anti-Semitism in academia that you folks seem to decry, since the roots of both lie in the same ideological/philosophical prejudices and authoritarian dysfunctions.
I mean, is black on black ideological hatred in academia just too hot to handle? Because I'm getting very discouraged about the moral courage of some of my colleagues in the noble blogosphere. Jean's case is the most egregious example of vindictive discrimination and ideological prejudice in US Academia, vastly more offensive than the Richard Lamm incident, and the utter silence about it just has me mystified.
Friend, I believe. Help thou, my unbelief.
"Griffin goes on to review many of the same tired theories that have been debunked. Judging by the lingering conspiracy theory over Roosevelt and Pearl Harbor, don’t expect these idiots to go away any time soon ..."
I don't know if you noted this elsewhere, but Griffin's book is actually entitled The New Pearl Harbor. A funny subtitle would have been At Dawn We Schlepped, but unfortunately Griffin isn't kidding.
To really show how unfunny he is, Griffin is the head of something called "The Center for a Postmodern World".
Egad Ruth, now I've insulted you. I didn't mean to accuse you of accusing Lewy of anything. I'm going to go have my foot surgically removed from my mouth now.
Fred:
It's cool, and your foot looks cute like that. Seriously, just my little aside.
Demosophist, Has anyone tried to get F.I.R.E. involved?
Demosophist,
I read your post and Googled around a bit on the Cobbs case. I’d agree it’s egregious. I did find this interesting, that Cobbs testified against Moore in a discrimination suit brought by an African professor, Godwin Mbagwu, against the university. Mbagwu won the case:So it’s not unreasonable to assume that payback had much to do with Cobbs’ firing, as your own post hints at. This doesn’t make the case any less egregious, but it does modulate the ideological component of the discrimination.As to your conjecture of “some weird exotic form of race discrimination”, I’ll just say, I doubt it. I’ve got notes on a half dozen posts I’d love to write that have yet to write themselves. I’m sure my fellow bloggers have the same.
Glen Wishard: Oy. ;)Who's "we" ?
If anyone gets removed, it will be due to something they(I) do.
Not the actions of whoever the "we" is you are referring to.
If you embark on some such Jihad, it will hamper your own ability to compete in the realm of ideas, something the left needs to learn, focus on ideas rather than people.
As for me, Im quite happy to have the guy here he is the best man we have working for us on the other side.
To raise a question thats more interesting, im often at a loss to understand, how those that are reasonable and honest brokers in the debate do not find more occasions to pause and reflect.
If such a creature is finding common cause with you, it might be evidence something is very wrong.
These fellow travers of yours range from black mask anarchists to worshipers of kim jong il
And they all march is the same parade and trade signs, from time to time.
Could you imagine a republican parade making room for the david duke float and the stormfront marching band ?
It would be no more or no less perverse.
Which brings me to this.
Well the potential is there, but everyone here knows better.
The emerging democracy in the ME that most here are hoping takes root and grows will have to endure resistance to freedom that make our sqabbles look trivial. and our moonbat friend really shouldnt bother us much untill he joins the ELF or the New-Weathermen. and we have people who job it is to deal with those.
It really isnt that out of place to bring up the nazis or the communists, they did things, their idiology was at the root of most of those things.
So when you see someone offering political planks out of the communist manifesto or read like Hilters laws translated fresh from the original german, its proper to point that out.
Our moonbat friend is using invective tossing the nazi label that those that are its polar opposite.
So he looks like all the things you laid out, however, anyone that would use him to smear the rest of you using him is no better, so who cares what they think ?
Me, I think he is usefull, when all those moonbats are voting with you, it might be time to pause, and reflect.
We have seen these moonbats march thru history before, the USSR China Germany et al, and one constant is they label those that disagree as evil incarnate, and once in power, exterminate them.
So as I keep saying, its time to pause, and reflect.
Raymond. Sigh. A few points:
Everyone:
Do not be a troll. Do not feed the trolls. Do not provoke others. Do stay on topic. (Hint: Out of the blue references to other posters are not on topic). There's plenty of interesting and controversial stuff in the post to comment on.
Tempted to comment on what I just wrote? Resist. Can't? Email me. Don't post it here, because I will delete it.
I should have said this before, my bad.
p.lukasiak - you're done posting in this thread. Subsequent posts by you will be deleted. I don't have to read your invective and insults, because that's all you offer.
delete away. But just because you delete my post, doesn't mean that you are not one of the most vicious hatemongers around.
"Hate" does not have an ideology, or a religion. It shows up from those who profess to be Christians and Jews as well as Muslim, and among those on the right as well as the left.
By focussing almost exclusively on what you consider "hate" that is coming from the Islamic world, what you are doing is promoting hate among an audience that is too ignorant to know that your selective presentation of hate is completely unrepresentative of Islam and Muslims in general.
I pointed out your hypocrisy when it comes to right-wing hate (Coulter) and your deliberate distortion of facts to promote your agenda (the Sunni fatwa), and was attacked for it.
When it comes to hatemongering, the radical Islamists you site have nothing on you.
p., really, it is cite, not site.
I think you have a basic misunderstanding of the purpose of "hatewatch". May i give you my point of view?
Islam and the West are engaged in a sort of memetic warfare. Their meme complexes are diametrically opposed-- "submission" vs. "free will". I think the osmotic pressure of western civilization is opperating inexorably on Islam, really can't be withstood. I believe that change is occurring, but the change is slow.
Entities like LGF, Lewy's Hatewatch, and Dymphna's I Could Scream, showcase the really horrific and awful instances of inhumanity occurring in the Islamic world. This is important-- how do people decide that some sort of homo-sapiens behavior is wrong? They have to see it first, to be graphically made aware of it.
There is a tendency in the media to suppress stories of inhumane acts, decryiing them as "hateful" or "sensationalist". The is also that everpresent PC bias. But the sites i listed are very important, because by exposing atrocity, they draw attention to it. I like to think of these sites as memetic accelerants, speeding the process of memetic change, by making these acts unacceptable.
umm, should be-- "by making these acts visible and therefore unacceptable."
Well, no doubt the testimony is part of it, but Eddie Moore has also said that he intended to rid the faculty of tenured black conservatives, so your objection that this is a mere vendetta probably doesn't cut it. The underlying issue is that black conservatives threaten the kleptocracy far more than white conservatives. It's definitely an exotic concept for whites, but certainly not beyond their grasp... and it's about time we locked horns with it.
This is the case of a woman's life being ruined vindictively, after 33 years of service, primarily as a result of exercising her voice and integrity. The real question is why you assume that this case doesn't merit the attention of Richard Lamm's rather minor incident, or even the Ward Churchill case. Personally, I think it's something as simple as the fact that you don't see this as an "academic freedom" or bias case (as your response attests), but as a case of "black politics," and it just looks "messy." That's the exotic discrimination I'm talking about. Your response actually bears out that impression. You're willing to discount it as an isolated vendetta (even though the implications of that are nearly as dire, even were it true). I remind you that Jean told the truth in the court case you mention.
By the way, some publicity might induce AAUP to censure VSU, which would do three things. First, it would help to reassure the beleaguered faculty at VSU, worried about whether who'll be Moore's next targets if he gets away with this. Second, it will reassure Jean, who has been psychologically crushed by the situation, as you might imagine. She has already unfairly lost he position, not to mention all of her retirement benefits for 33 years of honorable service, but such a public exposure might help a lawsuit against the university, to restore some of what she has lost.
You know, it seems to me that what's at stake here is whether or not the arc of one's life work can come to naught because of a corrupt and ideologically biased administration. And it seems to me that the only defense we really have against what Marc calls "bad philosophy" (the notion that intensity of belief unto death is more noble than whether you're right, or whether work matters) is to preserve the integrity and meaning of work and career. This is the core issue. The symbolism of the Churchill, Lamm, or Summers cases may appeal to a kind of "issue grandiosity" among bloggers, but there's really a lot more at stake in the Cobbs case than in any of those. You don't turn an enormous ship by flopping a big paddle over the side. You turn it with the trimtab.
Addendum:
I have to admit that the Richard Lamm thesis of a choice between "two wands"--one to wipe out racism and the other to inculcate "Japanese or Jewish values, respect for learning, and ambition" in the black community--has a certain appeal, even for me. (Or should I say, especially for me?) But it's not his rejection that's important to me, but the topic he raises. For just how, exactly, are the values within the "black community" that Lamm thinks are critical going to be established if people like Eddie Moore, Jr. are allowed to beat down the very people in that community who are the best exemplars of those values?
By all means listen to what Lamm says, but if you want to do something more than chew the cudd, pay a little more attention to the Cobbs case.
jinn, please...its "operating" not "opperating" :)
There is a tendency in the media to suppress stories of inhumane acts, decryiing them as "hateful" or "sensationalist". The is also that everpresent PC bias. But the sites i listed are very important, because by exposing atrocity, they draw attention to it. I like to think of these sites as memetic accelerants, speeding the process of memetic change, by making these acts unacceptable.
It is not the exposure of hate rhetoric that is the problem....its the exposure of hate rhetoric within the framework of a specific ideological agenda --- and the ignoring of hate rhetoric that supports that agenda --- that is the problem.
The simple fact is that sites that feature "Islamic based hate rhetoric" for the purpose of "making these acts visible and therefore unacceptable" are full of comments from right-wingers that are just as bigoted and bilous as the extremist rhetoric emanating from some Muslims. The bottom line is that these sites do not fulfill their stated purpose --- instead, they encourage more hate.... and no doubt Islamic extremists are quite happy to use this right-wing hate rhetoric aimed at Muslims to justify further hate rhetoric of their own.
A site that works to make hate "visible and therefore unacceptable" that does not focus on all forms of hate rhetoric regardless of ideology winds up merely encouraging more hate.
pl:
It's 'bilious' not 'bilous'. There, are we all corrected?
I am troubled by your statement: "the ignoring of hate rhetoric that supports that agenda --- that is the problem." It's 'hate rhetoric that supports' that makes me squirm. I think we have a shared reservation about the usefulness of hate rhetoric at all, therefore I think you misspoke in denominating hate rhetoric as a support mechanism.
jinn:
I like the memetic accelerant theory. But I just visited a site that held up the newsclip we've all seen, of terrorists in Iran shooting the downed helicopter pilot and it was the occasion of such an outpouring of anti-"left wing" and anti-Islamic feelings that I am sickened by that outpouring almost as much as by the shooting of an injured, helpless human being. While words, no matter how lowlife, don't do the damage of actual violence, they still stir up negative emotions that we don't need.
e.g.:a commenter: ("The CBC--Canada's Pravda and you are stupid enough to believe all that leftist swill they spew.
FOX is on the side of America--you are a terrorist supporter. That's why you hate FOX.")
Typical of certain hate mongers. And I really don't feel that the air is cleared by these interchanges.
Lewy14: Sorry if I have fed any trolls, I admit to always thinking any verbal person will be swayed by reasonable precepts. Sometimes I am proved wrong.
p., i am the self proclaimed worst speller in the blogverse. ;)
I think you are correct about comments-- but you have to understand that this is in part a normal biological reaction to atrocity. Like I said, the purpose of showing atrocity is memetic engineering, not whipping up hatemonger mob frenzy.
The things that Lewy, Charles, and Dymphna point out, are specific to the domain of interest. Should they be pointing out "african-american ghetto-hatred" or "emo-fan hatred" or some other variant? i don't understand.....for example, i am angry at the RCC for various policy issues, but i frankly hate them for burning mathematician Giordano Bruno at the stake in 1600. Are those the topics you want covered?
ruth, it is distressing, but perhaps neccessary for people to see this.
I have known from the moment i got briefed to my first set of accesses that there are people out there that will clean, skin, and eat you-- and your children! just because you are an american.
This is also a good thing to have visible.
and p. , as a case in point, do you think the RCC could get away with burning scientists at the stake today? Why not?
Probably they woould like to. ;)
Chopping off heads, (plenty Iraqi's in Iraq went redfaced in anger over that english woman)
Blowing up kids. killing the pilot, Or Arafats guys pushing a cripple in a wheel chair off the deck of that cruise ship.
We shouldnt get any negative feeling about the acts of those fantics,, no no.
Or killing that girl and beating her dead body with iron rods because she was seen in public with her fiance.
Honor killings, swinging 14 year olds by the neck off contruction cranes as a public event in a sports stadium in Iran.
No we are not supposed to feel negative about that, or the defending excusing leftist that went so far as to oppose a war against a land with mass graves of kids where school girls was used for weekend sex toys and live tiger food, whos fathers was fed feet first to a plastic shredder machine if he protested. no we shouldnt feel or say negative things about that.
And we shouldnt see that as a pattern, even with the left, who excused and defended their socialist hellholes that together mass murdered 174 million people, many of them just as horrifically.
No to feel negative, and say negative things about that, that being judgmental... thats too close to actually identifing evil and denouncing it.
and thats bad ... thats like Hurtfull and stuff.
Btw remember when some wondered when we would see Muslims angry and denouncing terror ?
We have seen it in spades in Iraq, they even showed up at the Jordan embassy, because one of the terrosts was from there.
Ohh what a difference freedom makes, Muslims really angry,, spitting mad Muslims, denouncing terror, screaming against terror, by the thousands.
Course, we are only able to see it thru the Iraq Blogs. words and pictures, 1000s of Muslims denouncing terrorists, that would give the wrong impression, that would damage the leftist-lies by the media.
Pro-American bloggers gratefull for freedom, giving us the news of thousands of free but angry Iraqis, angry at the terrorists
Not fit for US consumption I suppose, would do harm to their leftist propaganda.. must protect the leftist ruse.
And those of us that see that, we shouldnt get negative feelings about that, about the lieing leftist media and their leftist anti american agenda
We shouldnt get angry about that, and do things like post "Good News From Iraq" to cover what the leftist propagandists wont.
No thats negative and judgmental, negative feelings are bad, at we shouldnt allow ourselves to feel those, if we did, we might say something, and it might be Hurtfull.
And we cant have that.
An idea for next Hatewatch Briefing:
Next month, W.W. Norton is publishing Will Eisner's The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Eisner, the father of graphic novels, died earlier this year. More background here.
Patrick
jinn:
I'm one of the queasy types, it's true, and don't even attend violent films, often stop viewing tapes because the violence goes too far. So it may be that words are my medium for that reason. I'll give what you say every consideration. It's just depressing to see people keep coming back to and beating on the same old dead horse, when there's so much that's rewarding they can be doing with their minds.(Now I'm on the way back out to finish mowing the back forty - very peaceful.)
And as to the RCC: there was a pope who had his predecessor disinterred, excommunicated, and his body violated in some way. Bruno was pretty well treated, all things cosidered.
I think you are correct about comments-- but you have to understand that this is in part a normal biological reaction to atrocity. Like I said, the purpose of showing atrocity is memetic engineering, not whipping up hatemonger mob frenzy.
One of the bodies mechanisms for fighting infection is a fever. But sometimes that fever gets out of control....and results in brain damage or even death.
Furthermore, I'm not sure its all that advisable to act/react based on our emotional/biological response (in fact, I'm pretty sure that in most cases, its a bad idea --- I mean, precisely how constructive are my various expressions of outrage that have appeared here?) nor is it advisable to provoke such a response (I haven't counted, but I'd say that far less than 50% of the "provoctive" statements I've made have resulted in a "reasoned" response.)
The things that Lewy, Charles, and Dymphna point out, are specific to the domain of interest. Should they be pointing out "african-american ghetto-hatred" or "emo-fan hatred" or some other variant?
no, I don't think its necessary to catalogue all expression of hatred. However, I think that its a good idea to catalogue hatred coming from both sides of an ideological issue so that the evil of hate itself is shown to those who would get the "wrong" message from a one-sided catalogue of hate. (if you catalogue emo-hatred, catalogue hatred of emo-hatred as well) The point is to turn up the awareness without turning up the hate....
and p. , as a case in point, do you think the RCC could get away with burning scientists at the stake today?
only if the pyre consisted of "pro-homosexual agenda" publications! ;)
*****************************
"the ignoring of hate rhetoric that supports that agenda --- that is the problem." It's 'hate rhetoric that supports' that makes me squirm. I think we have a shared reservation about the usefulness of hate rhetoric at all, therefore I think you misspoke in denominating hate rhetoric as a support mechanism.
I disagree. Lewy14 has an agenda, and the hate rhetoric his catalogues spawn is in support of that agenda.
One of the bodies mechanisms for fighting infection is a fever. But sometimes that fever gets out of control....and results in brain damage or even death.
nonono, p. :)
the mechanism you refer too is highly effective. otherwise it wouldn't have persisted in the EEA as part of the genome. but a good analogy-- try this, hate-response is the mechanism that prevents atrocity from spreading to your tribe. ;)
Jinn, I appreciate the defense. My own approach is somewhat different.
pl has made a series of errors in his assumption about me. He has done so in a manner either by design or by absence of any sense of decency or restraint, which precludes further discussion.
Others who wish to evaluate the veracity of his remarks are welcome to read the post and the archives.
p.lukasiak: you've succeeded in disrupting this thread. Congratulations. I'm leaving your posts up so as the posts of others retain their context. I'm telling you, stay out of this thread.
Jinn
Which is where the questions about certain segments of the populace self preservation apparatus being seemingly non-functional. remember that ?
Franky, for a while i could not understand the leftist tendency to embrace and excuse killers, killers that would kill them first even, because they would stone our moonbat friend, or worse, if he was found living among them, and attack the defenders.
But once you figure out that everything is inverted, exactly the way Orwell laid out.
Such is the symtoms of self hatred. and along with it behavior that is properly labeled self debasement in as many cases.
Hate themselves, hate their country, and hate everyone that dont hate those that dont deserve it.
Freedom bad, leftist slavery good, Pope bad, M Moore good. Killing killers bad, killing innocent kids before they are born good.
Reagan bad, Castro good, Blowing up a bus full of Jew kids good, building a fence to protect the kids bad.
Some office holding democrats has said things was better under Saddam, is if it was better to see your girl taken from school as a sex toy and live tiger food, than to have her see Her parents go cast their first vote, with the bad dreams of having her become tiger food or having to watch her feet crushed in front of you over and done with.
Course there are all those mass graves telling us of crimes agaist humanity that Rival both the killing fields of PolPot and Ho Che Mihn.
And watching them wish for failure, hoping for failure, waiting in ernest for usefull bad news.
Naw. thats not evidence of a twisted hatefull heart, is it.
And of course, we are not supposed to take notice of that, or feel anything about that, make any obvious judgments about that. why we might say something and it might be "Hurtfull"
And we cant have that.
Demosophist,
I never made any statements about the relative merits of the Cobbs and Lamm cases - in fact I really haven't even been following the Lamm case, I don't know what it's about. Churchill's comments drew responses from bloggers, including this one, because he was interpreted as implying that anyone who contributed to the American economy deserved incineration. This, naturally, had a wide audience of interested people. Yes, the case seems messy - and yes, I do believe vendetta has something to do with it - but take my word or not, the fact that the participants are black has nothing to do with it from my perspective. I'd have the same opinion if they were white.
Lewy
The insinuation is a bit insulting anyway.
Its not as if we have not seen spew from the left at conservative blacks.. Powell was called a house slave, Dr Rice ..... more of it, and worse.
What I particualty saw as nailing them dead to rights was how they attacked their fellow liberal at Harvard, his commentary only slightly alluded to proven scientific fact.
But even when your position is factually beyond attack, objective truth itself, is shown to be out of bounds.
Simple stuff, like men cant multitask well, we are biologically one track minded, what tasking we do is a form of time slicing, and the number of items in the list must be less than 3. or our brains short out, and our reacion of often anooyance or anger, fustration et al.
When it comes to multitasking Women make us look like inferior incompetent boobs, if even that decription is strong enough.
On the other hand, we have the ability to intensly focus, and can tune out our souroundings so well, that we are often startled when we discover our wife has been demanding attention, and is now hovering over you, and rather unhappy.
Its simple biology, and you can see its physical reason in the brain, the size of the interconnect that joins left and right for example.
But to even come within a mile of of appearing to take notice of this at Harvard, you will be burned at the stake as a Heretic.
Of all the cases we hear about there must be a million we dont, and then there is the harsh climates effects. you just know this perpetual maoist cultural revolution stifles expression so much, that the big loss is the words that cant be spoken, that are not spoken, lest they find themselves tied to a pole in the middle of a pile of dry wood.
Which is where the questions about certain segments of the populace self preservation apparatus being seemingly non-functional. remember that ?
Yah, we talked about that at Belmont Club....i said they must be spandrels. ;)
but a good analogy-- try this, hate-response is the mechanism that prevents atrocity from spreading to your tribe. ;)
but that it were so. Unfortunately, history has shown up just how effectively hate can be created and manipulated (extreme example...Third Reich). Indeed, its difficult to come up with an example of a war in which efforts were not made to encourage hatred of the enemy, and to dehumanize him.
Such efforts may, indeed, be necessary. (One of the key points made by Michael Moore in F911 is that the American media did its best to dehumanize the Iraqi's, and he did so by showing pictures of children at play in Iraq just prior to the war. The "hate Michael Moore" crowd was outraged about this because Moore didn't show pictures of Iraqi atrocities --- pretty much proving Moore's point. Regardless of whether you feel the war was justified or not, outrage at efforts to "re-humanize" the people of Iraq is entirely misplaced.) And history has shown how difficult it is to maintain control of that hate. (recent example, Abu Ghraib.)
***************************
pl has made a series of errors in his assumption about me.
have I? from the introduction to hatewatch...
Our goal is to bring you some of the top jihadi rants, idiotarian seething, and old-school Jew-hatred from around the world, leaving you more informed, more aware, and pretty disgusted every month.
p.lukasiak: you've succeeded in disrupting this thread. Congratulations. I'm leaving your posts up so as the posts of others retain their context. I'm telling you, stay out of this thread.
delete away! But I'm not apologizing from "disrupting" your Two Minute Hate with a discussion of the destructive nature of hate.
This thread has left me with a couple of bad choices.
I could respond to a baiting, “why are you still beating your wife” accusatory stream by one p.lukasiak, or I could leave the charges hanging. Neither is satisfactory to me.
While I maintain that the diatribe by pl doesn’t deserve a response, I thought I’d collect some links so that fair minded observers could decide for themselves.
With regard to Ann Coulter, I’d invite people to see my comments in this thread, and decide whether I posses even a shred of respect for the woman. With regards to this post, the fact is it came late and I missed it. Those who doubt I’d call out media personalities for anti-Arab remarks should see the last bullet of this section. If I err with respect to Coulter, it’s for lack of taking her seriously.
As to the emphasis on Islamic hate, yes, it is there, and without apology – but the emphasis does not come by censoring out other expressions of hate. See, e.g., the last bullet of this section, and the last two bullets of this one.
Accusations of distortion come at me all the time, and I’ve been burned by bad stories and admitted as much – see the bullet on the “Coptic conversions” here. But with respect to the Sunni fatwa, I’d simply ask people to read the link for themselves, and see also here and here.
Again, this is not a defense, because I don’t think the accusations or the accuser merit one. These links are meant for people who are willing to make up their minds to get a better picture of what this briefing is about, and where I’m coming from. If after reading through these you feel pl is correct in his assessment of me, well OK then.
Finally, I have another bad choice, which is to either follow through and delete pl’s comments and everyone else who responded to them, as I’d vowed – including some worthwhile posts from some who I consider friends. Or leave them up, and appear ineffectual.
I’ve decided to leave them up, but after the fiasco that this thread has become I’m closing the comments, thus reserving for myself, fairly or not, the last word – at least until such time as I may obtain the recourse and council of my peers.
I've been persuaded by zorkmidden, my partner in this endeavor, that it is wiser and better to leave the comments open. And so they are.
Spare some sympathy for George Galloway
Okay......... ..... ..... nope--I tried, but I couldn't. I perhaps might have been able to muster some if this outcome were in any way surprising. But no, folks who don't share Galloway's illusions or ideology or self-hatred or whatever-it-is-he's-got have been saying for years that the radical Islamists would just as happily kill any of their "defenders" in the West as they would any other infidel.
Now Galloway finds out we were neither kidding or exaggerating. Perhaps the revelation will cause him to reexamine his positions?
[JK: Lewy is right, Raymond. Kicking a guy here when he can no longer defend himself is low class. We gave him the royal sendoff for messing with a Winds moderator, which is appropriate as a deterrent and law-and-order example. We also confined that to one thread. But even in that thread, I wouldn't advise reposting this.]
Raymond,
pl ain't around to stick up for himself anymore.
I would suggest that you - what's the phrase? - oh yeah.
"Move On".
Jinn, I'm no fan of heretic burnings, but I think you mischaracterize Bruno when you call him a mathematician. You might want to read Dame Frances Yate's magesterial Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition to understand what the Roman Catholic Church thought they were combating with the ecclesiastical trial and death of this ersatz monk.
Yates is, by far, the best cultural historian of the complex and not often understood subcurrents of hermeticism, white (and sometimes not so white) magic, Natural Philosophy and emerging true science during the Renaissance. She's one of my favorite authors on this topic, which I studied for a while .... and reading her brings a whole new eye and ear for Christopher Marlowe, Spencer, Shakespeare and other playwrights and poets of that time.
jinn -
oh, I like that 'memetic accelerator' hypothesis, that's kind of how I think of the role of LGF/hatewatch/&c in the blogosphere ecosystem.
then, reading p-luk's follow-up, in which he basically complained 'but these posts attract hateful comments!', I was struck by the thought that the vicious and unquestionably hateful flame wars that these sites incite serve the same purpose, in a sense. while those predisposed to be angry and confrontational may dominate the comments, I suspect that the silent, non-commenting majority is motivated to work for peace/tolerance/&c, once the ugliness of the alternative is made visible. and, after awhile, I bet that some of the angry types learn to see themselves as well. you know?
(((robin))) i hope things are much better for you.
One thing i really love about you is how disparate our reading lists always are. I am constantly learning new things. ;)
You know my bias. The concept of a Level I Multiverse is one of the heresies for which for the Vatican had Giordano Bruno burned at the stake in 1600. His ideas were elaborated in the following.
Brundit, G.B. 1979, Q. J. Royal Astr. Soc., 20, 37
Garriga, J., &Vilenken, A. 2001b, Phys. Rev. D, 64, 043511.
Perhaps if Bruno had not been burnt, we would be further along the learning curve in Quantum Theory.
john,
I bet that some of the angry types learn to see themselves as well.
I think that is very true. That sort of obsessive screeching is often punished by delinkings and loss of readership, and possibly by having your most strongly held principles mocked as satires.
Jinn, things are better - thanks!
I'd be a little careful about imputing modern ideas back to Bruno, even in seed form. I've read a representative amount of his writings ... he really is no modern and no scientist in our sense, either. He looks back to the neo-Platonists more than anything, combined with the classical use of symbolic techniques of active imagination for prodigious memory.
Yeah, my reading list is ... eclectic. ;-)
Robin, Bruno inspired Ellis and Tegmark (modern quantum theorists) also.
A part of QT is the dichotomy between the platonic ("bird-view") and the aristotelian ("frog-view") perspectives. So it makes perfect sense to me that Bruno was a neo-platonian.
He may not have been "scient" to you, but he qualifies for me. ;)
Tout meme, does anyone deserve burning at the stake, however heretical and subversive and threatening they may have been?
Re: Bruno, he may have inspired some in their visualization of quantum mechanics, but I'll arm wrestle you in friendly way, Jinn, and insist that he did so in a poetic or symbolic way and not as a scientist or proto-scientist. Bruno was the last flowering and a holdout for a PRE-scientific way of thinking, by analogy and symbol rather than by deduction or induction from concrete facts. He's a bit like the Tarot or the i Ching .... it's easy to read what we want into him.
It's a bugaboo with me, not because I dislike Bruno (as a Jungian I find him very rich) but because my generation is the one in which real science was watered down until there are educated adults in this friggin country that cannot distinguish astrology from astronomy. Sigh. ;-)
And no, as I started out by saying, I'm not big on the burning bit.
Robin, best two out of three?
That's why Bruno's contribution to science is so important, because our traditional methods are difficult to apply to Quantum Theory-- even Einstein had trouble! I am sort of a neo-Platonist myself! ;)
But Robin, I like the shape of your mind and your bibliography too much to wrestle with you-- i concede. ;)
Analogy and symbol are not bad ways of thinking.
In electrical work, beginners often begin with a water analogy.
With enough experience eventually you can actually visualize the electrons in a circuit. Or the neutrons in a reactor.
To make this work you need a lot of points of convergence between the analogy and reality.
Ultimately the only way to sort it all out is to make measurements and convert those into suitable equations.
Einstein was famous for his thought experiments.
Feynman also did thought experiments.
The current problem in quantum mechanics is that we don't have any good visual tools for imagining what a wave/particle looks like. String theory may help, once we put it on a solid experimental basis. So far it is as good as any other theory although it does have its attractions.
I read a while back that there was an experiment where string theory made a prediction that could be falsified, so we shall see.
I think the real difference between modern and ancient science is testing.
Nothing wrong with starting with an analogy.
Test all things. Hold fast to that which is true.
The engineer's motto. The scientist guys do it pretty well too.
The Ideas around the events of 9/11 haven not been DEBUNKED, just another group of experts giving there opinion. Not Fact, just Opinions on the events and evidence in front of them.
Allow people there opinion, Just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean it isn't true.
"don’t expect these idiots to go away any time soon."
Nice !
Brit, If I maintain something as outrageous and wildly counter-intuitive as that "Bushco" planned 9/11, the burden of proof isn't on you to prove it's not true; it's on me to prove it is. If you have such proof, please share.
#62,
Now we get to the testing phase.
Evidence please #61.
Lewy:
Well, good on yah! I still can't help but think that there's some dysfunction here though. Not with you specifically, because we have to make choices about how we spend our time and resources... but because of the utter silence in the blogosphere regarding an issue that goes right to the heart of the left's primary lament in the Churchill case: "academic freedom"--all those claims of "new McCarthyism," etc. Why is it that the Lamm incident and a few others are used to counter that lament, but Jean Cobbs is never mentioned? It's a vastly more egregious example of repression, rivaling what you might find in some place like Myanmar.
Just speculating here, because it is something of an anomaly, but:
1. Whites are probably very uncomfortable commenting about corruption within the black community if it primarily impacts only blacks, because they feel it opens them to charges of racism. And authoritarians within the black community rely on this discomfort in order to shield their activities. It is not unlike the dynamic that has blanketed the Arab Middle East for generations, and still leaves many on the left (as well as a few paleocons) wondering why we should give a rip about the oppression of Arabs. Whether this is a problem in the black community or not the only institutional avenues that might fix it are controlled by whites. That's the simple fact. Like it or not, those institutions will have to intervene sooner or later.
2. The stature of VSU is not as high, and therefore not nearly as important, to whites as Colorado University, or Harvard because their kids are very unlikely to attend such an institution. Hence, it's hard even to provoke Michelle Malkin, who knows well the dynamic of discrimination against minority conservatives, to comment.
But we need to comment, because the alignment of ethnic, religious and ideological factions and the deepening of faultlines is precisely what concerned the founders, and especially Madison. And it's what essentially destroyed all attempts at democracy before the American Revolution, and nearly all since. We have a unique system that creates "crosscutting alliances" across these traditional social divisions, which is one reason we've been as successful as we have.
It's dangerous to take this too much for granted.
How's that for tying everything together in a package?
Many geniuses have commented that they think in images or even concepts rather than words and symbols. To me, this indicates that they have more powerful and/or direct access to the fundamental operations of their brains than the rest of us. Symbols and language are upper-level derivatives of lower-level processing, and it is almost futile to attempt to use mere linguistic or symbolic analysis to get at the creative process.
As an interesting aside, one of the observations made of Einstein's brain is that the thickness of the layering in the areas devoted to mathematical reasoning was much greater than normal, as was the density of glial or "neuron nurse" cells. Whatever his imagery and picture-reasoning were like, they fed into a robust and ready processing center for translation and elaboration.
If you have such proof, please share.
Evidence please #61.
Bzzzzt.
I guess there weren't any.
Patrick
Many geniuses have commented that they think in images or even concepts rather than words and symbols. To me, this indicates that they have more powerful and/or direct access to the fundamental operations of their brains than the rest of us. Symbols and language are upper-level derivatives of lower-level processing, and it is almost futile to attempt to use mere linguistic or symbolic analysis to get at the creative process.
Again, as a Jungian I couldn't agree more!
HOWEVER .... symbolic thinking is NOT the same thing as science! (Even when it inspires someone to work through a possible scientific inquiry.)
So, Robin, then is String Theory "not science"?
From the referenced article in the "9/11" link, this "theologist" is indeed trafficing in long debunked nonsense. Every one of his listed claims are long debunked and silly on their face.
The more disturbing facet of the article is that they found UW-Madison students believing this.
Jinn, string theory is at least potentially falsifiable and based on deduction. Granted, it's several removes from directly observable phenomena, but the linkage is explicit at each step.
So yes, it's science. Now the Tarot, on the other hand ...(to pick up a conversation that spans two blogs LOL) ...
is from a Jungian perspective a rich set of archetypal images that provide a useful focus for meditation and which can evoke a variety of depth responses. Potentially powerful (in the traditional decks; I personally find the modern decks to be far more shallow), but not science ....