Or Happy Dominion Day if you prefer.

I, like many here, have had my differences with Canada lately and think much of their current idealogy and government is ill-advised. The sentiment is mutual, im sure of that. Regardless, Canada has, and i hope always will be, the United States sister nation and dear friend. Half my life revolved around hockey, pro-wrestling, and Loverboy (Ok maybe not so much Loverboy). Happy Canada Day!

I'm celebrating Liv Tyler's birthday, today.

Er... I thought Steven Den Beste made it clear that Canada was a Level 1 enemy.

Or do they get a free promotion to a Level 1 (or even Level 2) friend just for today?

Chris, you moron, read the post. I'm a Canadian.

Lol. Btw, anybody notice how invoking the name Den Beste has become an argument stopper? Its become the internet age version of "but Aristotle said..."

Joe-

I'm completely aware that you're Canadian. I've just always found that post particularly obnoxious, and thought this would be a good opportunity to point out the irony in Den Beste trashing Canada when Canadian troops willingly shed blood with our guys in Afganistan.

That being the case, am I the moron, or is Den Beste?

Speaking as an inside observer here, Den Beste's characterization of Canada under Chretien was not as wacky as you seem to think.

Canada's current position is probably best described as "friendly neutral with a large trading relationship." So large that some military cooperation will follow as a matter of course, lest it be endangered by too much visible non-support.

While I appreciate the Canadian troops who deployed to Afghanistan, their nation's response was a symbolic one at best. And rather pathetic in how poorly supported they were.

Joe-

So, you've gone from "Happy Canada Day, thanks to the Canadians fighting beside us in Afghanistan" to "Well, Steven's right, actually they're not that good a friend, and they're mostly doing what they're doing out of economics" in the space of one post?

Based on what I remember from conversations with (lefty) Canadian friends post-9/11, as well as Canadian polls taken at the time, Canada was pretty much bang behind us when our national security was clearly at stake. We've had a parting of the ways because of Iraq, and Canadian opinion towards the US has cooled considerably since then, but claiming that they're not a very good friend to the US, and denigrating their past contributions to the WoT does them a great disservice, I think.

And Robin, in comparison to the nominal support we've gotten from many nations in the "Coalition of the Willing", I dearly wish we had more "symbolic", "poorly supported" partners like Canada in Iraq.

Iran was 'behind us' post 911. Thats hardly the threshold of being a good friend. I think Canada is a good friend, but one who has done some unfriendly and ill advised things recently. Look, no Canadian wants to admit this, and i myself hate to broach the subject, but Canada lives under the United States' defense mantle and has basically disbanded their military. That allows Canada to pursue their socialized society. Thats fine, its their choice, but its hardly wrong for the US to then expect a bit of solidarity on issues like Iraq when Canada had a key vote in the UNSC at the time. Its like giving a friend your old car and then they wont drive you to the hospital with your pregnant gf because they dont approve of her. If Canada wishes to continue to have its special place in the world order, being able to punch above her weight class, they had better either reinvest in their military so they can deploy so much as a division, or get back on board with the US and UK politically. Thats the reality.

Mark-

There are a lot of assumptions in your post; more than I want to hash out at the moment. So I'll just respond by listing a couple of points:

- Does Canada "live under the United States' defense mantle?" Not since the end of the Cold War, at least. More particularly, Canada can get away with having the Army it does because it has only one geographic neighbor, with whom it's on excellent terms. (And frankly, couldn't do much against even if it wasn't.) More importantly, the vast majority of Canada's territory is frozen tundra that's not worth the cost for anyone to capture.

- The idea that Canada's able to have national health care because we're footing the bill for their defense is rather weakly supported, at the very least.

- Likewise, I'm not sure what you mean by Canada's "special place in the world order" - I'm not aware that Canada has any particular geopolitical ambitions, and their economic strength is entirely their own doing.

- All that said, your basic point that the US essentially carries Canada, and they'd better get back in line if they know what's good for them is pretty insulting. You're essentially one step away from saying that everybody should do what we say because we have the biggest army... which tends to undercut the whole "representative democracy" think we're trying to promote in the first place.

"Does Canada "live under the United States' defense mantle?" Not since the end of the Cold War, at least."

If that is the case than Canada should give up the pretension of being any kind of a world power, and stick to minding North American business.

"The idea that Canada's able to have national health care because we're footing the bill for their defense is rather weakly supported, at the very least."

Believe what you want, but Canada defense spending per GDP is a joke compared to the US, UK, or Japan for instance. If Canada's trade interest in Asia, say, were threatened by even a minor power or even pirates, Canada would be ill equipped to do anything about it without her allies. 10 years ago that wasnt the case. Its a massive underestimation of US contribution to everyone elses defense to ignore the stabiliy the US navy brings to world trade, to name a single issue.

"I'm not aware that Canada has any particular geopolitical ambitions, and their economic strength is entirely their own doing. "

Canada has traditionally been an international player well above her population would suggest, because Canada has been bold internatioally and fielded one of the finest militaries in the world for its size. If that time has passed, the political pretensions should pass as well, and in essense we shouldnt be bothering with this conversation. No-one cares what Mexico thinks about Iraq. If thats where Canada wants to be, so be it, but I doubt it.

"All that said, your basic point that the US essentially carries Canada, and they'd better get back in line if they know what's good for them is pretty insulting"

Thats your interpretation of what I said. What i did say was that if Canada wants to have the same voice it is accustomed to in western and Anglo policy, Canada had better start contributing something to the alliance as it used to. If Canada was out providing massive Tsunami relief, dealing with Afghanistan/Haiti/Kosovo/Korea/Iran/Iraq/etc etc, well then maybe Canada would be respected as a geopolitical power again, but essentially Canada has abandoned any actual impact on the world stage, but still seems to think she can have the same voice. Doesnt work like that.

Remind me again of who Canada had to hitch a ride to Afghanistan? I've friends who were in Afghanistan during the PPLI's deployment there who told me of how much personal equipment that they gave to the PPLI troops to enable their participation in operations.

It is Canada's anti-american political posturing that is - unfortunately - being subsidized today by the US. Frankly, its past time that the Canadian political class grew up.

Chris (#10) doesn't quite seem to get the concept. Maybe he's a liberal. I'll speak slowly....

I'm a Canadian. Therefore, I honour my country and our troops wherever they are. I do this whether or not I consider my country a good friend of the USA, or a poor friend, because... this is my country. What I think of Canada-US relations is a separate subject.

Are we beginning to get through now?

It is not "thanks to the Canadians fighting beside us in Afghanistan," as you so oddly put it. Who would this "us" be?

Hint: The Canadians ARE "us."

So, thank you to MY country's troops who are serving today, including those in Afghanistan. Thanks also to some Americans who have shown considerable class in dealing with my countrymen who were there.

And go read some of the Canadian blogs, so y'all won't remain as confused as Chris obviously is.

I'm a Canadian. Therefore, I honour my country and our troops wherever they are. I do this whether or not I consider my country a good friend of the USA, or a poor friend, because... this is my country. What I think of Canada-US relations is a separate subject.

So... Joe will "honor" his country by putting up jingoistic "yay Canada" posts, but, y'know, not actually defend his country against people who suggest that it's an "enemy" or "acting above their station" by not agreeing with everything the US does.

Jeez... call me a liberal, make derogatory insinuations about my intelligence, whatever floats your boat, Joe. This liberal idiot apparently still feels more patriotism towards his country than you do towards yours.

Chris,

This may shock you, but I am not obliged to defend my country without reference to my sense of the truth. Furthermore, it is possible to believe my country is coming up short in important ways, to hold a judgment about the Chretien government, and to note that many Canadians I know do express a level of bigotry and hatred that would make the use of the word "enemy" at the very least a debatable proposition - and still respect and honor the many good things about Canada.

A country does not have to be perfect, in order to be celebrated. Certainly those serving in harm's way on behalf of us all deserve to be celebrated without reference to politics on my country's day.

This is not "jingoism." It is maturity. You should try it.

And anybody that uses 'jingoism' as an epithet isnt to be taken seriously anyway. Patriotism isnt a dirty word.

Hey, why should Canada be different? If you have real respect for your country, you want it to be as perfect as possible, and having high ideals is worth a lot - sometimes that involves criticism.

By the way, as to 'jingoism', I know it evolved from a Teddy Roosevelt era jingle that goes: "We don't want to fight, but by jingo if we do, we've got the guns, we've got the men, we've got the ____, too." Can anyone fill in? Or correct any mistakes?

Ruth, Victorian British era music hall ditty actually. Boer War if memory serves.

RR: Right you are: Googled 'jingo' ... 'This word came about when England was considering involvement in the Russo-TurkishWar. A music hall song of that time proclaimed:

"We don't want to fight: but if we do, by Jingo,
We've got the ships, we've got the men, and got the money, too!"' Seems it scans better, tho, as 'by Jingo if we do'.

Interesting word derivation, jingo coming from one version of names of God. Must have gotten the TR connection from some history in high school dimly remembered.

Never thought of jingoism in connection with Canada, myself.

Most Canadians think "jingoism" is about the funny songs that come with TV commercials.