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August 15, 2005

Out on a limb

by Dan Darling at August 15, 2005 9:40 PM

First all, thanks to all those who commented in my previous thread on Iraq and thanks to Nadezha posting a lengthy response over at Liberals Against Terrorism (I agree with Joe that my preferred acronym, LaT, probably looks a little too similar to the Lashkar-e-Taiba's) for posting a very nice reply on the subject. It's a good piece, well-worth reading and as such it requires a full reply.

Dan's reaction is a lengthy cri de coeur that boils down to "Say it ain't so!"

Not exactly. The Post article didn't contain much that was new for me as far as the problems we're now facing in Iraq versus those we had expected to face going in. Recall that I went through and summarized Cordesman's definitive treatment on the subject, which I would wholeheartedly recommend for anyone who wants a full and scholarly read on the problem. My issue with the Post article was not so much that these problems existed but rather that the administration, more or less for domestic concerns, is going to just shrug it's shoulders and give up as a result. Now that would be okay if our sole objective in going into Iraq was deposing Saddam Hussein, but it wasn't and that certainly wasn't our stated reason for staying after the WMDs proved elusive. After all we've heard about what a credibility gap the US has in Iraq because of our encouragement and then abandonment of the Iraqi people after the Gulf War, you'll forgive me if I don't want us to add to it if nothing else.

Dan makes an impassioned case for why a "cut and run" strategy is dangerous for US interests. Given his personal focus on terrorist groups, he is particularly distressed by the notion that Al Qaeda would benefit from being able to claim to have defeated the US in Iraq.

Not only would they "claim" to have defeated the US but, as with their earlier victory in Somalia or Hezbollah's in Lebanon, their claim would be entirely accurate. The whole premise of bin Laden and his followers as far as why the West should be attacked is not because we are strong but rather because we are weak and unable to stand against the mujahideen in open battle. A US withdrawl from Iraq justifies that doctrine in every way and if you think that our being in Iraq is a magnet for terrorism, just wait until we pull out and see what happens. Hezbollah is still reaping enormous financial and recruiting benefits throughout the Middle East because they're the only Arab force that can claim to have foughted and defeated Westerners in open battle, for instance. Having al-Qaeda reap that benefit again entirely apart from their tangible gains if the US withdraws from Iraq would be a disaster of unparallel porportions given their current global profile, which is something they didn't have back in Somalia.

Without saying it in so many words, he also fears a sort of "Iraq syndrome" that would inhibit the US from intervening with force where necessary to deal with terrorist threats.

Essentially, yes. Without US support, Iraq will collapse into ethno-sectarian violence a la 1990s Afghanistan and I see evidence whatsoever that this violence will stop at the country's borders. That's a pretty big mess right there and with the European militaries unable to deploy sizeable forces away from home it means that there'll be no one around to clean it up. Certainly there'll be no incentive to clean it up from either a war-weary US populace or a political establishment where neither party will be terribly eager to throw themselves into the fire.

For me, Dan's strongest argument, which he doesn't flesh out, is that leaving Iraq as a "failed state" would present a considerable threat not only to Iraq's neighbors but to the rest of the world.

Fair enough, let me do that now. I don't think that Zarqawi or his successors will be able to take over Iraq, but I can easily see them setting up a Taliban-style Islamic Republic of Anbar to the point where we start worrying about full-blown Afghan-style training camps all over again. The Shi'ite clerical establishment's restraint at launching reprisals against Sunnis is likely to fade and I can easily see that heading south into eastern Saudi Arabia (where all that oil is, lest we forget) and the smaller Gulf emirates. Iran could simply intervene militarily in southern Iraq using the concerns of their co-religionists as a cover and either set up a rump protectorate or annex the place outright. With the US unable to intervene and the Europeans emasculated, who's going to stop them? The Kurds will likely declare independence and out doing quite well for themselves, but I guarantee that'll result in net gain for the PKK and other Kurdish separatist movements in Syria and Iran.

As a result, I believe (and I think Nadezha does to) that Iraq collapsing would be a Bad Thing.

The balance of Dan's remarks, and the bulk of his concern, address domestic politics and his fear that the Bush Administration and the GOP have concluded that politics trumps US interests in Iraq. He cites a series of posts that our co-blogger, Eric Martin, has published on this site, which offer plausible evidence that the US electoral calendar is influencing Iraq exit strategies.

Martin (whose response I read in the comments and duly noted) isn't the first and certainly won't be the last liberal blogger to express these criticisms, but he did so in a very articulate and non-hysterical manner that is one of the reasons I enjoy reading the entire Liberals Against Terrorism team to begin with. I didn't agree with his assessments at the time (just as I expect he disagrees with a great many of mine), but this was the first article I had seen (and I know that you guys have posted many, many examples of this, lest you think I am unappreciative of your work) where that actually struck me as plausible.

Undoubtedly, some in the GOP hierarchy are political cynics who would like to time a reduction in troop levels with the 2006 elections. However, too much can be made of electoral politics. It would be a mistake to see the Post article as a trial balloon or the maneuvering of dissident bureaucrats within one part of the Administration or another. The recent rumblings in the media are, in fact, reflecting shifts to a more realistic and sober set of objectives -- shifts we've been tracking for a number of months. It may be news to the Post and the NYT, but not to close observers of the Bush's second term Administration.

As noted above, I am aware of this as much as any other regular reader of your site. The object of my particular ire, however, was that the Post article contained two new tidbits that I certainly hadn't seen before:

1. The US is no longer interested in creating a democracy in Iraq but rather to focus on creating the conditions where a democracy can eventually be set up, which is diplospeak for just another Middle Eastern dictatorship. As I said in my initial post, if we were going to do that and all that talk about creating a democracy was just talk for the rubes (like me) then what was the problem with Allawi?

2. The US is no longer committed to defeating but rather to "reducing" the insurgency. You can read that a couple of different ways, but the way it will be read in the Middle East is that the US is getting ready to bail out when the going gets tough.

As I argued earlier regarding the GWOT/GSAVE ruckus, the White House is "out on a limb" with its continued attachment to the politics of "war" all the while developing a far broader, longer-term and, shall we say, more nuanced strategy for combating the threats from Islamist extremism.

I'm aware of this, though to me the issue of what we call what we're in is nothing more than a matter of semantics and marketing. I didn't like GSAVE (though the fact that "struggle" is jihad in Arabic had a certain appeal to me) for the simple fact that it sounded lame, though if you look at the recommendations (scroll down) that Rohan Gunaratna was making as early as the spring of 2002 I think you'll see a far more articulate and nuanced plan than any put forward by anyone else.

The President is facing an even more acute version of the same problem in Iraq. The original justifications for the invasion have gone by the boards, and the "feel-good" moments of being treated as liberators were long-gone by the time the Bremer/Sanchez duo departed Baghdad. The rationales used for the November elections were to transform the Middle East through a successful democracy in Iraq and to fight terrorists to keep them from attacking us at home. Neither rationale remains terribly satisfactory to a growing portion of the American public, as Dan outlines in his post.

Yep, though I feel at least part of this is due to the fact that the administration, either because its obsession with secrecy or mendacity (pick whichever one you think feels good) has been unable to satisfactory defend itself on any of these issues. Pro-war columnists, policy wonks, bloggers, ad infinitum can construct excellent rationales to defend even the worst aspects of this misadventure, but with the exception of "flypaper" I can't think of one that's actually been adopted by the administration beyond the slogans you've just articulated above. This is part of an ongoing problem I have from a counter-terrorism perspective that I have with the administration, namely a refusal to be up-front with the American public about the broader realities of the war.

For instance, when the government rounded up the gang down Lodi or more recently when it came to light that at least several of the 7/7 London bombers were likely trained at Lashkar-e-Taiba camps down in Pakistan, the reaction among much the punditocracy was nothing short of shock that terrorist training camps were still in business over 3 and a half years after we'd stomped the Taliban. As I noted at the time, this wasn't news - it was readily available to anyone with access to the internet, but nobody in either the administration or the opposition party really wants to talk about it or how to fix it on either the political or the policy level. I can give literally hundreds of other examples, but my point is that you cannot complain that support for the need to contribute manpower and money to a conflict is fading when you aren't willing to treat the public like adults when it comes to the conflict to begin with.

Nadezha then proceeds to narrate once again the need for the military to train Iraqi forces and the need for the Iraqis themselves to work out the nuts and bolts of the political process that is, after all, going to end up governing their country. I understand all that, but the key thing that needs to be understood as all of this haggling is going is, "What are our goals in Iraq?" Are we in fact trying to set up a democratic society over there or just trying to set up a government, any government, that will last long enough for us to declare victory and go home? That was distinct tone of the Post article and one of the reasons that I directed so much of my ire towards it to begin with.

To return to the various sources of Dan's angst about realism intruding into Administration policy. First, isn't it time we face up to the fact that the Iraq war was never part of a "war on terror" nor was it about fighting terrorists in Iraq to avert another 9/11.

Semantic distinctions. Whether or not Iraq was part of the war on terrorism when we invaded, it certainly is now from the perspective of the terrorists. Bin Laden, al-Zawahiri, al-Adel, al-Ayyeri, and Zarqawi are all remarkably clear on this point. And while I have always rejected the core argument of the "flypaper" thesis (which strikes me as one of those things that sounds brilliant to pundits, which is where the term predictably originated from - I believe it was David Warren and Andrew Sullivan, no?), I do think that it would also be foolish to argue that al-Qaeda's or to use Indian terms, the International Islamic Front's (which I think does a far better job of capturing what we're actually fighting) resources are not having to be diverted to support the jihad in Iraq.

This confusion, shared by an unfortunately large number of US troops, has probably been responsible for a number of the difficulties the US has faced as an occupying authority in treatment of civilians and detainees.

That contention is one that I'll disagree strongly with. The whole idea that US soldiers are unable to make meaningful distinctions between various insurgents and people who are picked up during sweeps in Iraq and mentally lump the whole of them together as being on par with the 9/11 hijackers is, like the flypaper theory, one of those arguments that sounds great to pundits and commentators but which fades when exposed to reality. Prisoner abuse has occurred for a number of reasons, many of which are far more easily explainable than this kind of mass psychoanalysis.

The idea that we'd "rather fight 'em there than here" is both nonsense and morally repugnant, to put it politely. True, we are now forced to fight terrorists in Iraq. But that's not because we're preventing them from attacking the US, but rather because they're trying to prevent a functioning country from emerging. Of course, in the sense that the US has a strong interest in the future of Iraq, fighting the terrorists is protecting the US. And I share some of Dan's concerns about the manner in which the US withdraws from Iraq producing a psychological victory for jihadists. But those are not the ways that President Bush employs the claim that the war in Iraq is central to the war on terror.

Agreed on flypaper, as noted above. As for Iraq being central to the war on terrorism, you're free to read the last book written by Yousef al-Ayyeri, bin Laden's spiritual advisor and the leader of al-Qaeda in Saudi Arabia until his death at the hands of Saudi security forces in 2003. The English title roughly translates to The Future of Iraq and the Arabian Peninsula After the Fall of Baghdad and I would recommend reading it and reading Saif al-Adel's Iraq al-Jihad for the same reason that I would recommend reading Mein Kampf to anyone who wanted to learn about what the Nazis wanted to do. An al-Qaeda victory in Iraq would not simple be a psychological phenomenon, but it would have a number of very nasty real-world consequences to it, not the least of which being that the terror network will have a new base from which to operate from that directly borders Jordan, whose monarchy Zarqawi is sworn to overthrow. And if Zarqawi does succeed in overthrowing the Hashemites (and I will be quite honest that I see little that will stop him, given his claim that he has beaten the US), that brings his zone of control right up to the Israeli border. Here again, I think we can both agree that this would be a Very Bad Thing.

Second, except for the Jacobins and dreamers, the war has never been about "the march of freedom" in the sense of creating a liberal democracy in the Middle East as a beacon to the region. I'm not one of folks who think that Muslims or Arabs can't be democrats. I for one wanted to see elections for an interim government as early as possible instead of the CPA taking total charge. I also welcomed the January elections as a critical but small step toward a better future for Iraq and Iraqis (although not, I might add, as a vindication of the decision to go to war in Iraq).

As for your criticism of the CPA, believe it or not a lot of the neocons thought the same thing at the time, not that it matters at this point. As for the Iraqi elections, they were a critical step in the Iraqi political process in that they accomplished several things:

1. Allawi stepped down without any violence, for all the talk that he was just Saddam-lite.

2. The principle of popular sovereignty was established for the Iraqis.

3. The insurgency was shown to have definite limits in that it was unable to disrupt the political process for all its threats. The emperor, to put it bluntly, had no clothes.

Whether or not any of that vindicates the decision to go to war in Iraq is another issue altogether, but it's certainly a beneficial outcome. And if we are indeed to be nuanced, can we not accept that good things can emerge from bad policies?

But I also recognize that reconciling the tensions among democratic institutions, freedoms, rule of law and cultural norms is a massive undertaking for any society -- the US itself is engaged in perpetual adjustments to manage those tensions. When you add to the mix the number of circles that the Iraqis have to square -- most notably regarding federalism and the role of Islam as a source of civil law -- we shouldn't be surprised at the way things are turning out. For me, the source of never-ending surprise is that so many Americans still think that they can dictate the results of what has to be a sustainable bargain among the Iraqis themselves.

I've noticed that. The problem, at least as I see it, is multi-fold though entirely understandable. I don't think that social engineering (which is more or less what we're talking about) works, which is one of the reasons why I tend to oppose it here. As such, I don't think you can socially engineer the Iraqi people into becoming a quaint Middle Eastern version of Britain or Canada. Another point that needs to be recognized is that democracy does not equal utopia and that the type of society that is going to result from Middle Eastern democracy is not going to be one consistent with some of the more libertarian notions popular online, which is why people are conflating the application of sha'riah on issues of marriage and divorce among Muslims with the establishment of a theocracy even while completely ignoring (as liberalhawk so eloquently pointed out here) that Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East, regulates Jewish marriage and divorce using halacha and relies on Hanafi sha'riah to deal with similar issues among its Muslim population.

Nadezha then tries to draw a distinction between "winning the war" and creating the basic conditions for Iraqis to make a decent future for themselves. I don't, in large part because I see one of the major prerequisites of that happening as being defeating Zarqawi, for whose agenda all this internal Iraqi politicking is merely incidental. As I noted in my latest summary of Cordesman's work on Iraq:

Another point that needs to be made clear is that even if Iraq completely or largely stabilizes politically we are still going to be dealing with an al-Qaeda threat to the country for the immediate future. This is pretty much what has happened in Afghanistan, where the former ruling class (the Pashtuns) have been incorporated into Karzai's (granted, much weaker) government with relatively few hitches. The reason that this is so problematic in the case of Iraq is that if you accept (and I do) that most of the mass casualty terrorist attacks are being carried out by Zarqawi, it is not entirely clear that they will necessarily cease in the event that a new constitution is successfully drafted. Just today, for instance, we got a stark reminder that al-Qaeda continues to support its campaign in Afghanistan and there is little reason to suspect that it won't do the same in Iraq. That also means, incidentally, that the "bleed back" is likely to continue from the immediate future since most of the individuals that intelligence agencies are concerned about are foreigners rather than Iraqis. In the interest of refraining from snark, I will simply note that Cordesman is unambiguous that the only way you are going to stop Zarqawi and his ilk is through a military solution.

Given who Zarqawi works for and the threat he represents, if that isn't a reason to stay and fight I'm not sure what is. It's certainly directed tied to the goal that Nadezha quotes General McCaffery laid out to the Foreign Relations Committee. Whether or not that'll satisfy Cindy Sheehan, beats me, but I think it will satisfy most of the American public if articulated successfully.

As I discussed earlier regarding adjustments in counterinsurgency strategies, it will also require constant flexibility and adaptation of American strategic ends and operational means. And that's assuming the Iraqis themselves can come to a consensus on what sort of governance they want, or at least will accept.

In a great comment posted by jonnybutter, he warns me of the dangers of political naivete. But I'd nonetheless like to see Bush make the case I've outlined rather than remain trapped in his obsolete political rhetoric. It's what Joe Biden means when he says Bush needs to "level with the American people" before they lose patience.

Looking back on this string of posts, I honestly have to wonder if there's that much difference between Biden's criticism and those of my own if they are as Nadezha says. And I am all for adjusting our strategy to reflect the realities of the insurgency (and as someone who is from Fort Leavenworth, Kansas and know most of the people at the CGSC who published this), but what needs to be understood is that the goal that General McCaffery laid out to the Foreign Relations Committee has just been ditched if we're no longer even looking for a democracy in Iraq. As I keep repeating, why not simply have left Allawi in power as the Saddam-lite that everyone said he was if that was the plan?

My political concerns are the opposite of Dan's -- that Bush will "stay on message." Is America really going to be better off if the President and the antiwar folks manage between them to further polarize the Iraq war even though there's a significant common ground that could be built around the very policies his Administration is beginning to pursue?

To stay "on message" he'll first need to find it - and the sloganeering that you outlined above has been woefully ineffective at this point. The administration has been hard-pressed to make a coherent case in support of the war since the failure to find WMDs became too hard to ignore with the publication of the Kay report and support has been driven largely by the arguments of people outside of government ever since.

As far as further polarizing the country around the Iraq war, don't make me laugh. The country is already polarized around the issues of both Iraq and Bush and there is very little that is going to change that for the immediate future. Again, as I noted back in June:

To put it another way, the administration went into Iraq with something on the order of 70% of the population supporting it, including (as myself and countless others have noted) a sizeable number of self-described centrists, liberals, and Democrats. The vast majority of those (excluding those in the party establishment, expert, and pundit categories) the administration lost quite early on with the failure to find WMDs and subsequent allegations concerning pre-war intelligence and hasn't in my opinion been able to regain them since ... internal conflicts within the administration over the post-war reconstruction made that impossible and, when combined with the Plame affair, pretty much solidified the vast majority (again, in terms of the general population) of liberals and Democrats' earlier unease with regard to the administration's conduct of the war, which soon led to a great deal of skepticism and then to open contempt. The party establishment, which near as I can tell had invested a great deal of political capital in the war under the expectation that at least most of the pre-war claims would pan out and they would be able to profit politically from participating in it. As a result, they proved insufficiently critical of the administration on the war in Iraq until it was too late (if you want to see a particularly memorable example of this, go back to Saddam's capture in December 2003 you can find John Edwards on TV talking about how he has always supported the president and the war), thereby leading to the rise of the Howard Dean campaign that drew heavily on many of the same organizational and social networks that had previously come together in the anti-war movement.

The reason I mention all of this is the simple fact as far as I can see is that there is no real way to win these individuals back, particularly many of those who had formerly supported the war, because in order to make the transition they had to come to a number of conclusions about the competence and honesty of the administration (with which I strongly disagree) that, had I come to them, would leave me similarly cynical. Add to that the fact that their opinions are regularly reinforced by those portions of the press, foreign policy establishment, intelligence community, and academia that never had much use for the war or the administration to begin with and you can see the dilemma as far as winning them back over is concerned. As far as many of them are concerned, the best way to fix the situation in Iraq is to neutralize the administration (in the sense of what they see it's ability to do harm) or at least force it to comply with their preferred policies. They tried to do this in the 2004 election and appear to be moving forward with that policy to this day because, simply speaking, they regard the administration as having screwed up Iraq and don't trust it to do a decent job as far as anything else is concerned.

I don't believe that all that much has changed since June as far as the basic truth of this assessment is concerned, nor do I see any real way to win the majority of these people back over. I also think Liberals Against Terrorism has at least recognized this dilemma, judging from all the posts over there from the January 30 Iraqi elections to around April when the insurgency ended its post-election lull about how anti-war liberals or liberals in general should accept that good things can result from bad policies (like the Iraq war) or how it seemed like the adults were, if temporarily, back in charge at the administration and were starting to implement policies on that you guys agreed with. As I said, I don't believe that there's much that Bush or anyone else can do to change the perceptions among this class of people, which is why I listed another one in that particular post:

The mushy middle, for a whole host of reasons, seems to be primarily focused on results at this point. When Iraq was showing progress after the elections, the general mood was quite hopeful. Since those elections, however, there has been very little (from the perspective of the US population) progress and far too much violence for many of them to continue to support the amount of money and lives. And, if I might be so bold, this is compounded by the fact that the administration is perceived as continuing to react to the situation in Iraq rather than being proactive - Bush's recent round of responses in defense of the war, for instance, only came about in response to the bad polls, not Zarqawi's continued penchant for bloodshed. As long as that perception of reacting rather than acting holds up and little visible political progress is made by the Iraqi government, public opposition to the war is likely to increase.

You'll notice that I have touched very little with respect to the actual situation on the ground in Iraq. For lack of a better way to describe it, it is irrelevant as far as public perception on the ground is concerned. The security situation in Iraq was in far more jeopardy of flying apart last April than it is today and there was little in the way of calls for the US to pull out.

Those are the people that I think Bush should and can reach out to if he is willing to do so, which led to my conclusion:

It remains to be seen whether the US and the current administration will be able to successfully counter this strategy while it still has the political will and capital to do so. If they want to, however, they're going to have be willing to fight for Iraq as hard politically as our troops have been on the ground.

That held true at the time and I think it still does now. Unfortunately, unless the administration is willing to fight as hard for US involvement in Iraq as it was against John Kerry, I think that public support is going to continue to wane.

Nadezha continues:

Bush is doing a disservice to the rest of his Administration, the troops and the country by clinging to meaningless sloganeering to maintain the loyalty of his base.

Speaking as a member of that base, he isn't doing that good job, in part because vague sloganeering only goes so far. The GOP base is and remains loyal to the Iraq venture but it is also desires substance to back up all the rhetoric and articulation so that we can give a satisfactory answer whenever people ask us how we can possibly continue to support Bush given his monumental foreign policy failures, of which the war in Iraq is Example #1. Thus far, we've pretty much been left on our own on that one and we've done pretty well for ourselves, but at some point there comes a need for leadership and direction from the top and I think it quite appropriate to say that this time is now.

There are centrist Republicans and large numbers of Democrats in Congress who don't buy the Bush rhetoric but are pleading to work with his Administration on realistic policies. My fear is that they will become increasingly isolated in the center -- treated as defeatists by Bush partisans and as out-of-touch hawkish elites who have betrayed liberal ideals by those who want out of Iraq yesterday. As a wartime President, Bush should be pulling people together by defining the true challenges and real limitations we face, explaining how and why our policies are adapting to circumstance, and specifying what we're really there to achieve. Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to see that sort of leadership out of this President.

I'm not seeing it either, which is the real substance of my criticism, though I expect my definition of "realistic policies" are going to differ rather markedly from Nadezha's, probably enough to put me in the Jacobin category. Going back to my original post, my real issue is the last category that Nadezha sketched out, namely what we're in Iraq to achieve. I support the goals that General McCaffery layed out to the Foreign Relations Committee, but the views expressed in that Post article were the exact opposite and I don't think it'd be that terrible, as we wait for the Iraqis to iron out their new constitution, for someone in the administration come out and disavow what they have been telling people like me for about, oh, 2 years or so now.


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"Out on a limb"
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Comments
#1 from Max at 9:47 pm on Aug 15, 2005

How about "Afganistan- yes, Iraq- No"?

#2 from Mark Buehner at 10:29 pm on Aug 15, 2005

Hmm. Well personally I would argue that if the US did pull out the Sunnis would make short work of the AQ bullies and rapidly attempt to fire up their own war engine to recapture the bulk of the nation (and oil fields) in a Baathist resurgence, doubtless with heavy Syrian backing. That is turn would drive the Shiia into Irans pocket and probably cause some major Kurdish-Turk confrontations. Not quite the same scenario, but equally devastating.
The truth is that as ugly as things are and as badly as we have bungled several facets of the rebuilding, we still are in a position amazingly hopeful to our ends. We may teeter, but we continue on the balance beam. A benefits functioning, multi-ethnic Iraqi democracy cannot be overstated, even if the result is less friendly to America than we would like. I repeat, a democratic and progressive Iraq is to our benefit even if they are not our friend or ally.

#3 from Eric Martin at 11:05 pm on Aug 15, 2005

"Martin (whose response I read in the comments and duly noted)..."

Duly noted back at ya. I mean it could be worse anyway for me, but I prefer to straighten the record when I can. Nice post as well though, as you point out, we disagree in some places.

#4 from Dan Darling at 11:19 pm on Aug 15, 2005

And if the political discourse in this country could go back to just that, Eric, I would be a very happy man ...

#5 from Chris at 11:25 pm on Aug 15, 2005

I'm interested in constrasting these two bits of reasoning from Dan's post:

This is part of an ongoing problem I have from a counter-terrorism perspective that I have with the administration, namely a refusal to be up-front with the American public about the broader realities of the war.

And, in response to Nadezha's quote:

First, isn't it time we face up to the fact that the Iraq war was never part of a "war on terror" nor was it about fighting terrorists in Iraq to avert another 9/11.

Semantic distinctions. Whether or not Iraq was part of the war on terrorism when we invaded, it certainly is now from the perspective of the terrorists.

This is likely just another nail in the coffin proving Dan's theory of never being able to win back certain previously pro-war lefties, but... perhaps the administration's pre-invasion refusal to fully (or even partially) engage in a debate over whether Iraq really was part of the War on Terror is an example of their refusal to be upfront about the broader realities of war?

In other words, one of the big problems lefties had with the run-up to war was the terms of the debate - they felt the administration was pushing the war on the public and spinning the facts for all they were worth. Obviously many people here, and much of the public at large, disagreed with those assertions, and we went to war.

But, in light of what Dan's now saying about the administration, don't we have to examine those accusations in a new light? And if the accusations were true back then, what does that say about the chances that Bush will be more upfront about the way things are going, now that his public support is far more dire?

#6 from Robin Roberts at 11:48 pm on Aug 15, 2005

I don't think that the administration refused to engage in a debate about practical aspects of the role of the Iraq war in the war on terrorism.

I think that the administration instead was dragged into a discussion of the technical international legal justifications of the conflict by political opponents who thought that they could oppose the administration in that manner without themselves having to take any position on the matter of the practical aspects of the conflict. That pseudo-issue then dominated the discussion largely despite the administration's preferences rather than because of it. From then on, any other message about the purposes of the war was shouted down as somehow being contradictory to the technical legal justification.

#7 from Dan Darling at 12:10 am on Aug 16, 2005

Chris:

My main complaint with the administration as far as its sins are concerned are those of omission more than the type of behavior you attribute ("pushing the war on the public and spinning the facts for all they were worth").

My chief problem with the administration is that so far they've done everything in their power to insulate much of the war from the general public except when it's politically expedient for them to do so. The LeT running training camps for al-Qaeda in Pakistan is one example, the al-Qaeda leadership based in Iran is another, MILF support for JI in Mindanao, Iranian support for Sadr's rebellion, ad infinitum. These issues have to be raised and explained to the American public in order for us to formulate policy and then be able to justify to the voters why action x, y, and z are necessary and what we hope to achieve by them. Saying up-front that there are training camps run by al-Qaeda allies is not the same as a call for the sacking of Islamabad, but it might just be enough to get a bit of a discussion rolling as far as how we plan to deal with this issue before some of these camps' alumni explode in a city near you.

The run-up to the war in Iraq (and here is where I part ways altogether with the "reality-based community," do remember that I'm one of those crazy people who think that the former Iraqi regime had ties to al-Qaeda) demonstrated to me that the administration was quite capable of getting its message out when and if it wants to. The aftermath of the Iraqi elections was another, as was the capture of Saddam Hussein. The problem is, you can't sustain public support for a war by spinning the major events that work in your favor for all they're worth and ignoring the day-to-day events. Or maybe you can, but not in a situation like we're now in over in Iraq.

Another thing that needs to be pointed out is that going back into the justifications for war and seeing how many of them didn't pan out (what, the checklist the AP put out awhile back not working any more?) doesn't move us one step closer as far as dealing with Iraq today and what we're hoping to achieve now is concerned. Nadezha says that she thinks a lot of liberals (whom, being one of them, she knows far better than I) would be willing to endorse certain policies as far as Iraq is concerned without any added animus against the administration. My skepticism as far as this approach is concerned is articulated above, which is why I suggest reaching out to the mushy middle. In order to do either, however, the administration first has to articulate a message when it comes to Iraq and if that message is that we've basically given up on democracy over there I think it's quite appropriate for people among its strongest supporters like myself to cry foul.

#8 from Jim Rockford at 1:13 am on Aug 16, 2005

Dan --

I don't think there IS a mushy middle anymore, or any common ground to be found. Internally, Democrats have been captured by the money-base which focues on the anti-War message of Cindy Sherman as a naive and simplistic solution to terror and violence.

Republicans and the Bush Administration in particular seem to have concluded that the Press is so hostile and overtly partisan that there is no use in trying to communicate to the public about the true nature of the War or the enemy. This was I think implicit in the beginning where even the carefully chosen words "evil-doers" got derision and we were treated just a few days after 9/11 with the "root causes" explanation and the view (widespread in the Media) that we ourselves were to blame for the terror. Along of course with the "sophisticated" set telling us that there was no such thing as evil, only misunderstood tragic third worlders. Stupid black and white, good and evil BushCo!

Look at NRO's coverage of the National Geographic "Inside 9/11" special "I can speak about the motivations of the individuals involved in the 9/11 attack," said Los Angeles Times reporter Terry McDermott, author of Perfect Soldiers: The Hijackers, Who They Were, Why They Did It and also a panelist at the Inside 9/11 press conference, "and I would completely agree with what Michael said."

Someone asked how many of the Inside 9/11 experts agreed with each other's points of view. Panelist Peter Lance, the former ABC correspondent and author of 1000 Years for Revenge: International Terrorism and the FBI (The Untold Story), decided to expand on that subject. "How many people think that the invasion of Iraq set us back in the war?" he suggested to the audience, raising his own hand.

"This is the biggest unsolved homicide in American history," Lance said a few minutes later.

Given that mindset, Bush's refusal to engage with the American People is understandable. The Media have already decided (and so too frankly has my own Party) that the cause of 9/11 was US policy, by not giving bin Laden what he wants (and the corollary that his attacks were more or less justified), and the 9/11 attacks may be "unsolved" (i.e. Bush and "the Jews" did it, as any random poster on Washington Monthly will tell you) and is in any case a Law Enforcement problem. Ala Kerry. Or Bill Clinton. That the Patriot Act and GWB are more dangerous than bin Laden (basically Kos has become mainstream in the Democratic Party).

Fundamentally the Media and Democratic Party view 9/11 and Al Qaeda as just another law enforcement issue and less dangerous than Pat Robertson or the Patriot Act. There's just no middle ground and no bridging that gap. At least Bush understands however dimly that the world has changed since 9/11 and we can't go back.

Dems by and large (along with the Media same thing) live in a pre-9/11 world and deny it ever happened.

#9 from C-Low at 2:05 am on Aug 16, 2005

Bush has the right idea he just has the wrong outlook on how the US works. Bush is a politician who believes that the US moves in back door meeting and deals with polititians. He believes that if he can keep the direction going in the gov it will be OK and a few slogans on the people to keep them quiet. In short he believes the power comes from the gov not the power comes from the people. If Bush in the begining should have been straight up like right after 9-11 long hard war take a generation and cost thousands of lives ect... as soon as the numbers got a little competitive he fell in the LLL's trap and started giving best case senerio almost garanteed recipe for failure. This war is a unbelievable victory from a historical aspect and quiet frankly not the worst case sererio by far although back when the Sadr and Zark were running loose I was really worried for a minute. Bush's job is to keep the people rallied and that means talking to the people and keeping everyone in the right direction not after the LLL media beat down the polls but before during and after such. Bush needs to not just say insert X slogan he needs to explain why this is a success give examples of history. For f*cks sake we lost more men on sh*thole island X in the pacific in WW2. Or more men on D-day in a matter of hours than we have to date in a invasion conquest and occupation 3yrs long that is insane. No one would have guesed that even in best case. Iraq not perfect is coming along great it takes time they will have democracy "if Bush will keep the people rallied enough to finish" maybe women wont have western style freedom but this is the ME's first democracy think US 1800's not perfect but on the right direction to the desired result.

#10 from Ben P at 4:23 am on Aug 16, 2005

C-Low:

although back when the Sadr and Zark were running loose I was really worried for a minute

Sadr no longer "running loose" because his people have largely become part of the governing class and police/security apparatus in the Shi'ite South. Whether this can be seen as a victory or not, I don't know. But I think it is a sign that civil society is virtually completely absence and vigilantism and gangsterism are pretty much the rule outside of Kurdistan.

Zark, I'm not so sure. Clearly the insurgency is still running strong. However, Z. is only one branch of said insurgency, which consists of ex-Baathists, common criminals, jihadists, and sundry others. The insurgency can't ever "win" but I don't think it can really "lose," either - at least in the medium term.

All in all, I think history will judge this as decidely mixed venture. I think Iraq will limp along for at least the next several decades. I don't think it will descend into a full blown civil war and I don't think a coup d'etat is on the cards on the short term. However, I think that people really do have to stop thinking of Iraq as a nation like Germany or Japan after WWII (which were always, to my eyes, fairly preposterous analogies) or even Korea in 1950. A more accurate parallel to what exists would be to imagine if the US were to invade, say, Nigeria or Zimbabwe.This isn't to say that the war is a total "failure" from the perspective of those who supported (I didn't), but I think what war supporters (and the Bush administration, too) need to do is to become more realistic about the nature of Iraqi society and the nature of first world invasions of third world nations with little sense of nationhood. This is not meant to invalidate the intentions of war supporters, but I do think more candid - not doom and gloom, however - assesments of what is actually going on is in order.

#11 from Chris at 4:59 am on Aug 16, 2005

Dan-

My chief problem with the administration is that so far they've done everything in their power to insulate much of the war from the general public except when it's politically expedient for them to do so. ... These issues have to be raised and explained to the American public in order for us to formulate policy and then be able to justify to the voters why action x, y, and z are necessary and what we hope to achieve by them.

I understand that you don't think there's anything to be gained by reexamining the run-up to war, but I disagree - not because it'll tell us more about Iraq, but because it'll tell us about the Bush administration.

The logic I'm becoming increasingly convinced by is this: Bush's administration does not, has not, and likely will not treat the public as rational decision makers. If they were, they'd already have done what you suggest, which is to lay out what they want to do, lay out the reasons they want to do it, and move forward from there, hopefully with the support of a public that's weighed the evidence and sees the wisdom of the administration's approach.

Even the examples you give of the administration getting out its message is more along the lines of a glossy ad campaign than a sober argument. It's not that there aren't several good reasons in favor of the Iraq war, but it was the conservative media and the hawkish blogosphere that was putting that message out there, not Bush.

Look, Greg Djerejian wants to see Bush fire Rumsfeld to get things restarted; you want to see the administration better articulate the realities of the war on terror. I guess I'm wondering what evidence anybody has that Bush can make that kind of change in management style - the guy's fantastic at moral clarity and staying the course, but beyond that?

And if Bush isn't kind of making that kind of change, and if war supporters like yourself are "left to cry foul", Dan, what options does the country have for the War on Terror? Are we entirely limited to hoping Bush gets his act together, or what?

#12 from AMac at 5:01 am on Aug 16, 2005

What I appreciate about Dan Darling's posts, and also about the Liberals Against Terrorism essays and comments discussed in this series, are these authors' attentions to two questions:

  • What's happened up to now? and
  • What are the likely risks and benefits of the varied policy decisions we face?

For the most part, I just don't see the national conversation, if it can be called that, as being very focused on either thing. Most reporters seem unwilling or unable to move beyond a sports-score approach, with US casualties being the big favorite proxy of a war-gone-bad. The Next Terrorist Attack, and which politicians in power should be pre-blamed for it, is another favorite theme.

The shortcomings of Bush and his team are in some respects a mirror image of those of the mainstream media. As Darling, Martin, and others here point out, the Administration has never made a serious effort to inform the public of the whats, the whys, or the priorities.

Sadly, many of Blair's early speeches still read quite well; it's not as if "it just can't be done!" is a viable excuse. And Den Beste's 2003 explanations still resonate, as reasoning about what we had hoped to achieve, and why. It would still be a good jumping-off point for a serious Administration effort to explain what we are now trying to accomplish, and to prevent, and why a high price in lives--our soldiers' lives--is worth paying. Outside of the realms of blogs and policy-wonk journals, the urgency just doesn't seem to exist.

#13 from Dadmanly at 5:24 am on Aug 16, 2005

I read these criticisms and I keep thinking the same thing. People criticized Lincoln mercilessly, and endlessly. Too slow, an idiot, not decisive.

There were many that questioned why we fought Hitler, what had he ever done to us? They mocked FDR, Churchill. Never solidly behind him to begin with, more scared to do without him, Britain tossed Churchill out the moment the war was won.

I read things like:

"These issues have to be raised and explained to the American public in order for us to formulate policy and then be able to justify to the voters why action x, y, and z are necessary and what we hope to achieve by them."

Or,

"the administration first has to articulate a message when it comes to Iraq and if that message is that we've basically given up on democracy over there I think it's quite appropriate for people among its strongest supporters like myself to cry foul."

We grasp endlessly at what we think we know about policy, we say they need to "articulate" more clearly the nature of the war we're in.

Do everyone a favor. Don't just re-read Blair's speeches, re-read Bush's too. He has said this all before, and quite forcefully.

The people who haven't been focused on the goal are the American people, mirrored (surprise!) by media.

WE have short attention spans, we're spoiled, and largely, we'd rather ignore that hulking brute just waiting to cream us. If we just sit here at the bar minding our own business, maybe he'e just go away ...

#14 from Roy Rettberg at 5:54 am on Aug 16, 2005

While many of us despise the hypocrisy of George Bush and his administration and wish him to fail, this would be disastrous for the nation. A little crow eating on his part would be welcomed and perhaps healing to the nation, but as many have mentioned before, it is not likely. What is likely is the hardened inflexibility of right wing true believers made up of Christian and religious fundamentalists on the one hand, and confusion throughout the rest of the nation. No leader is stepping forward to challenge the administration except for Cindy Sheehan. Perhaps she will strike a cord, but I expect that she will be given the "Swift Boat" treatment in short order. The question I have is will gas prices trump all other issues and force a break in the intellectual logjam we are stuck in? Sadly, it might.

#15 from AMac at 2:43 pm on Aug 16, 2005

Dadmanly #13 wrote:

> Don't just re-read Blair's speeches, re-read Bush's too. He has said this all before, and quite forcefully.

Interesting. Can you/anyone provide links to transcripts of a couple of Bush's "best of" speeches on these points?

#16 from lurker at 3:04 pm on Aug 16, 2005

Roy Rettberg,
I don't like it either, but Bush's strategy is a perfect response to an opposition and a press that are only interested in scoring partisan points.

As soon at the Democrats start setting out serious policies that can be debated and the press begins to do more than play gotcha games, then I will join you in the call for Bush to be more forthright about mistakes.

For example, the press can start by actually calling terrorists terrorists and the Democrats can put forward an argument why pulling out of Iraq would be best for everyone, including the Iraqis. I'm not holding my breath.

WRT Mrs. Sheehan. If this is not another perfect example of the politcal gotcha game, then what is it? Do you want the administration to go find mothers that support the war? Is this the level of politcal debate that you really want?

#17 from liberalhawk at 3:29 pm on Aug 16, 2005

excellent post Dan. Gets to alot of things.

Thanks also for your gracious reference to me.

I would disagree that Bush cant change course. I think that the inside the beltway story HAS been about a change of course - the triumph of Condi, and the weakening of Rummy. Condi is now SecofState, with Zoelick as here dep, and Hadley at NSC, Feith and Wolfie are gone, and Bolton is moving to where he'll be more visible but less powerful.

But Rummy continues to be in a position to block a new, well not approach so much, as a new articulation, and a new coalition.

In my moments of despair, Id like to see the man on the white horse - IE the Senator from Arizona. Even if he is impulsive, and not techically a match for Rummy on all defense issues, his instincts on Iraq NOW are probably superior, and politically it would be the best possible move (given that this admin wont appoint a hawkish Dem to this post) OTOH Im not sure Condi wants someone that strong as SecDef, someone who would contest control of national security generally. Who WOULD she want? I fear she prefers a crippled Rummy to any successor.

#18 from Tom Holsinger at 10:16 pm on Aug 16, 2005

Dan,

You err in ascribing too much influence to the Democrats and lefties. They are not decisive here, and are not even important save insofar as the Bush administration lets itself be unnecessarily daunted by them. They're just background noise. The earth does not revolve on its axis because the Democrats want it to, and it won't stop revolving when they oppose the concept.

It is Bush's own side which is important and decisive. If the Bush administration's willingness to win wobbles, the GOP base will be the ones who successfully demand that we pull out. Not because we can't win, but because the Bush administration no longer wants to.

They'll put up with a lot, but not with lack of will to win at the top.

And I repeat, withdrawal merely means we'll be attacked again at home, and then we'll resort to nuclear genocide.

The only question about America's victory in the war on terror is how many Arabs survive the experience.

And if you think I'm pessimistic about the Saudis, read John Bradley's Saudi Arabia Exposed.

#19 from M. Simon at 2:09 am on Aug 17, 2005

What if Atta did meet with Iraqi agents in Prague in the run up to 9/11?

What if Bush can't say everything he knows in order to guard operational security?

We will not know how well this war was fought for 20 or 60 years.

What looks like defeat may be a setup for victory. Or it could be the usual blundering in war.

=================================

My biggest concern re: victory or defeat is not the military situation.

It is the constitution.

What has been gained on the battle field could be lost at the conference table.

#20 from Mixed Humor at 4:52 am on Aug 17, 2005

Interesting reading Dan and Nadezha's commentary and the accompanying comments. I question how much of the American public remain trapped in a 20th century security mindset, where threats that are unconventional in nature or don't crystalize in the form of u-boats sinking U.S. ships off the coast or Soviet intercontinental ballistic missiles aimed at U.S. cities, are not fully understood.

In 1998, Secretary Albright defended Operation Desert Fox by saying "We are now dealing with a threat, I think, that is probably harder for some to understand because it is a threat of the future, rather than a present threat, or a present act such as a border crossing or border agression."

The nature of threats have changed over time, and that process has been accelerated since 9/11 by the emergence of third party non-state actors, state sponsors of terrorism, and weapons proliferation. In a day and age where the "smoking gun" question is increasingly becoming outdated, are Americans prepared to confront the realities of security in the 21st century? I don't believe so and think a good deal of the public is rather disengaged in what transpires abroad. Had the 9/11 attacks been envisioned (and they were by some) and presented to the public as a very real threat, I believe most people would've looked upon that idea as a product of fantasy, or a scene from Lethal Weapon XIV...not reality.

Alot of Americans harbor a natural suspicion when it comes to government and their motivations, and rightfully so. By the same token, an overwhelming number of Americans would prefer "peace" over "war". Harboring peace as a personal perogative isn't a bad thing, but when those sentiments become policy it can be disasterous.

When I talked with Timothy Naftali (author of Blindspot: The Secret History of American Counterterrorism), we discussed the ability of liberal democracies to wage counterterrorism campaigns and we agreed that it didn't come without difficulty and a natural persuasion to view such type actions with a degree of doubt, uncertainty, and reluctance.

To get back to my main point, I fear the nation is collectively oblivious to unconventional threats and the threat environment the 21st century presents. The concept of 'what happens abroad matters in our own security interests' is lost upon a good many people.

Constant reenforcement and articulation needs to transpire from the leaders of this country and I don't believe that's happened. I sincerely believe (and so probably do a fair number of others) I can lay out a better case for why going into Iraq was necessary than the administration has, and why disengagement would be a terrible mistake. Ultimately the failure to get across a consistent, coherent and solidified message has created confusion, and as a result a fair number of people have begun re-evaluating their support for the military action in Iraq. That said, the media and political environment haven't exactly been condusive to the war effort either.

#21 from Robert McDougall at 5:50 am on Aug 17, 2005

The US is no longer interested in creating a democracy in Iraq but rather to focus on creating the conditions where a democracy can eventually be set up, which is diplospeak for just another Middle Eastern dictatorship.

No:

1. Yet Another Middle Eastern Dictatorship isn't "the conditions where a democracy can eventually be set up"; there's no sign that the WaPo's anonymous sources are pretending that it is.

2. None of the those sources speak of a dictatorship; one speaks of "some form of Islamic republic".

3. There's no indication that Iraq is headed for dictatorship just yet. More likely a formal democracy with a tenuous control over Baghdad, with power in the provinces usurped by political movements and militias (to mention one of several possibilities).

Rather than "just another Middle Eastern dictatorship", these guys (the WaPo's "U.S. officials") are looking at something a little bit like Iran and a little bit like pre-war Lebanon.

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HUMANITY: Art & Culture (161)
HUMANITY: Art - Music (32)
HUMANITY: Art - Poetry (6)
HUMANITY: Christianity (53)