Or how about something in between: we abolish FEMA and go back to something like the old Civil Defense framework. Under such a framework national Civil Defense exists to coordinate the activities of local Civil Defense.

One of the key problems is that standard are, by their very nature, backwards looking.

Back to the master narrative, Department Of Homeland Security is a Federal rather than state organization.
According to this link Homeland Security Refused Red Cross Access To Feed Hungry, Thirsty People

As before, when confronted with evidence that FEMA and Homeland Security were broken, staffed with inexperienced cronies, and mismananged by the "anti-big government" GOP, conservative response is to advocate replacing the agencies they have broken with some mishmash of "distributed" disaster planning, instead of doing the obvious common sense thing and fixing what they broke. Kind of a "thousand points of light" approach to disaster planning, and the increasing poverty rate in the US (increasing since 2000, coincidence?) shows what a complete failure the "thousand points of light" approach has been.

It is not a "dominant narrative" but simple fact that significant Federal aid did not arrive before Friday, while the levees failed on Monday. No amount of conservative spin will convince the US public that FEMA response was not ineffective, when "Brownie" the head of FEMA declared ignorance of 20000 evacuees, while everybody else in the US could see them on CNN over the last 24 hours. Maybe instead of "distributed response" FEMA should hire some interns to watch CNN so they can find out what is going on.

As mentioned in other threads, there was plenty of failure at state, local, and community levels but playing the "blame game" to pretend that the Bush administration is blameless is a hopeless effort to spin away reality.

It will not work.

Maybe I am mistaken, but you seem to be trying to make a point and only highlight the opposite. An arm of the Federal Gov. within NOLA was responsible for the delay. Seems pretty evident. Yes, there is plenty of blame to go round for the local folks, but when an agent of the Federal Goverment steps in and makes such a dicision- well then- the Federal Government owns it.
And golly gee- what has our Federal government decided to do? Bring in BlackWater mercs, decide that the fat cats like Shaw, Halliburton, etal do not have to pay standard wages to employees (those Mercenaries are expensive), etc.
Not only have they toatlly bungled the response, they continue to do so.

Obviously massive government failure happened. But I have read elsewhere that do not expect federal help at the earliest 48 hours and more likely 72 hours. And that is initial help, lead elements etc. real help is even further down the road. The levee failed - tuesday - then friday is not a bad response - just not optimal. One of the major problems was the local government and state governments failed in a major way. Stopping red cross relief to the Superdome is one example. If they allow the red cross in than you do not have the images of people on the bridge, maybe the chaos in the Superdome is not a bad or is avoided.

The underlying lesson learned is that government is not all powerful, you need to take care of yourselff and ordinary americans will always pitch in and help when the going gets tough. Government was the problem in New Orleans

Tom and Max, I guess you missed the part about it being the Louisina Department of Homeland Security, which is run by the STATE of Louisiana. From their website

"The Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (LHLS & EP); formally the Louisiana Office of Emergency Preparedness (LOEP), was created by the Civil Act of 1950 and is under the Louisiana Military Department."

but that must not fit into YOUR narrative.

Tom Volkhausen #2,

You appear to have been tripped up by an honest mistake made by the Post-Gazette (your linked article) and other news sources. According to the reporter who broke the story, the "Homeland Security" department that the Red Cross and the Salvation Army were dealing with is the Homeland Security Department of the State of Louisiana and not the Federal agency.

Red Cross FAQ here:

Hurricane Katrina: Why is the Red Cross not in New Orleans?

• Access to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders.

• The state Homeland Security Department had requested--and continues to request--that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city. [emphasis mine]

If it turns out that reporter Major Garrett got the story wrong, I'll definitely post a prominent Update--because you'd be right, that would undermine a major premise of the post. This shouldn't be a battle of the secondary citations, though: we'd need hyperlinks to primary sources that show that the NGO relief agencies are being misunderstood or misquoted. Till then, the post stands.

Max #3,

Welcome to Winds of Change. Until reading your comment, I was unaware that Blackwater Mercs were involved in the response to hurricane Katrina.

REAKING -

FEMA DIRECTOR MICHAEL BROWN BEING REMOVED FROM ROLE MANAGING HURRICANE KATRINA RELIEF EFFORTS, FOX NEWS HAS LEARNED.

Date: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:39:04 AM PDT
Subject: Krauthammer - NO Assigning Blame

Krauthammer - Assigning Blame (HT Litttle Green Footballs)

Krauthammer in his usual flair for stating the obvious:

WASHINGTON -- In less enlightened times, there was no catastrophe independent of human agency. When the plague or some other natural disaster struck, witches were burned, Jews were massacred and all felt better (except the witches and Jews).

A few centuries later, our progressive thinkers have progressed not an inch. No fall of a sparrow on this planet is not attributed to sin and human perfidy. The three current favorites are: (1) global warming, (2) the war in Iraq and (3) tax cuts. Katrina hits and the unholy trinity is immediately invoked to damn sinner-in-chief George W. Bush.

[...]

Let's be clear. The author of this calamity was, first and foremost, Nature (or if you prefer, Nature's God). The suffering was augmented, aided and abetted in descending order of culpability by the following:

[...]

Read More

Townhall link

Hey. Tom.

Louisiana has a state department of "Homeland Security". It was they who made the call, not the nat'l organization. A state agency.

As far as I could see your news link didn't point that out, so I guess you can be forgiven for not knowing. If you don't believe me, here's a Red Cross statement:

http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html#4524

Here's a link to said department:

http://www.loep.state.la.us/

Now, for all I know, the LA Homeland Security Dept. had a good reason for not letting them (and the Salvation Army too, it appears) in. But it wasn't the Feds that made the call.

Fox news has been reporting on it, but so far I'm not sure anyone else has, uh, "noticed". I won't say that anyone's trying to bury the story, but if they are, to quote you, "It will not work".

According to The Red Cross, it is the Louisiana State Homeland Security Department, and not the federal agency of the same name, that refused them access to New Orleans.

Assuming that The Red Cross is right about this, the fact that so many people are blaming the feds instead is...interesting.

Tom V -- The Salvation Army has also confirmed that the LOUISIANA State Dept. of Homeland Security prevented them from going into New Orleans on MONDAY with their mobile kitchens to feed people at the Convention Center and Superdome.

The "reason?" That Louisiana officials did not want the locations to be "magnets" and wanted people to leave the city. Yet as reported all over the news, Gretna closed down the main evacuation route, the Crescent City Connection, to keep evacuees out of their city. DOJ should look into that as possible racial discrimination.

Varifrank suggests, and he's probably right, that the lawyers are going to drive this story as the mother of all lawsuits.

NY Times is reporting that Blanco fought with the Feds to keep control for political reasons.

[link here --AMac]

This tracks with Ray Nagin's comments that Blanco when offered a choice by Bush demurred and said she needed 24 hours and then still did not decide.

Supposedly, Nagin did not evacuate the poor from the city on buses due to lawyers being uneasy about liability concerns, and did not call for evac until t-24 hours because of liability issues from tourist and hotel interests.

When the last lawsuit is settled, the ownership of this problem is going to rest mostly on the City and State. Feds will get their ownership but mostly of lack to total effort stymied or made worse by political fighting by Blanco.

anyone feel like banding together to launch this web site - the domain is available and the time has come!

It does look like the refusal of Red Cross and Salvation Army was likely a State rather than Federal act, although there are many stories on Google about FEMA making private sector contributions nearly impossibly complicated.

But, that does not change my main point, which is that the fix for bad government is better government, not some ad-hoc community effort (worthwhile as community efforts can be). Good government, at local, state, and federal levels would use and coordinate private sector efforts appropriately.

Effective use of non-governmental resources at all levels pretty much demands pre-disaster planning and organization, which seemed lacking at all levels before Katrina.

An independent investigation will clearly reveal many failures and opportunities for improvement at the state and local levels. Just because I vote D, does not mean that I would want to shield incompetent Democratic leaders from scrutiny and consequences, any more than I want to shield Bush.

Let them all take their lumps and if democracy works properly, better leadership should replace them.

sorry I forgot to provide the url

www.suethegovernment.com

Jim Rockford, My parents are from New Orleans. I grew up 60 miles from the city, visited family there frequently, and the only local news we got on television was from New Orleans and Baton Rouge. There are neighborhoods in NO that the police wouldn't enter unless they were in force and armed. If I were a NO suburbanite (black, white, purple or green) I wouldn't want those animals anywhere near my neighborhood. For Christ's sake look what they did after the hurricane--roving in rape packs, shooting at each other with looted guns, shooting at rescue helicopters, shooting at hospital evacuees, and God knows what else. I've been through hurricanes. Ivan may not have devastated Pensacola to the degree that Katrina did NO, but it was pretty damned bad. Order could easily have broken down, but it didn't. People helped each other, shared food and water. Brigades of people with chain saws showed up at strangers' houses, cut up downed trees and moved on, like the lone ranger, not waiting to be thanked. There was no successful relief effort for several days after the storm. So I ask you, what's the difference between Pensacola and NO? Call me racist if you must, but it seems to me the difference is the kind of people who live in each place.

There's a new sheriff in town, and his name's - Michael Chertoff. After watching the press conference this morning, I'm coming to an understanding of what's really going on here. What we're seeing is the direct result of the creation of a new federal beaurocracy, The Department of Homeland Security, which broke the previous model. This became all to obvious as I listened to the guy from the Dept. of Homeland Security (I'M IN CHARGE) describe his efforts in planning and executing the rescue and recovery.

You take a bunch of federal agencies that were doing a capable job and are staffed with experienced professionals, strip away their executives, place them under politically appointed hacks, and this is the kind of result you shouldn't be suprised at. I'm sure a lot of federal agencies (CIA, FBI, NSC, etc.) are seeing the same kind of thing, but it's been out of sight so far. New ideas are good, but flushing out seasoned professionals in order to make way for these new ideas isn't always a good idea. It also allows for organizations to repeat mistakes that were part of the institutional memory that no longer exists.

After all, why should we be denied the same pleasure that the residents of Baghdad got with the provisional government, also stacked neck high with political hacks who are great at passing out flyers and fund-raising in the environment of a national campaign, but fail miserably at the day-to-day operations of running any type of organization.

I see this all the time in the corporate world as well, loyalty is rewarded over competence and experience. It's a sad thing, the type of thing you expect to see in a third world kleptocracry, not in our country.

for all I know, the LA Homeland Security Dept. had a good reason for not letting them (and the Salvation Army too, it appears) in.

Fear of an outbreak of cholera or typhoid, probably. If that happens, [fill in the blank] will be blamed for not forcing residents out sooner.

Tom,
Come on. you've wanted to blame Bush BEFORE any facts were known. No one here is against an honest assessment of failures. Going off half cocked (like you have done here) will not help your, the media's, or the Democrats' credibility.

Who's the one that wants to "spin reality" Tom?

Please explain how you fix government?? Government in the US is inefficient by design. Corruption at the state and local level add another level of inefficiency. Good government is a pipe dream. All you can really hope for is not to bad government that doesn't get you killed (or kill you) while waiting for them to act

The buck stops with the President. This is a massive failure. However, if this what we can expect from our government, they will not be getting the votes next time. This is his legacy. Bush will never get past this. The locals will get what they deserve as well. I have been reading this site and it appears to be mostly white christian bigots. I hope I am not out of place, but I call it like I see it.

Iraq looks to be on the cusp of civil war.
Osama is free to do whatever he pleases.
We have provided the best recruitment for terrorists organizations. The policy is ill conceived and although it could have suceeded, it appears destined to fail.

Born and raised in Texas. The tide is certainly turning and good riddance.

-Hype

"Who's the one that wants to "spin reality" Tom?"

One answer would be Karl Rove and the dittoheads who attempt to implement his strategy....

From NY Times(registration required),
White House Enacts a Plan to Ease Political Damage
WASHINGTON, Sept. 4 - Under the command of President Bush's two senior political advisers, the White House rolled out a plan this weekend to contain the political damage from the administration's response to Hurricane Katrina.

It orchestrated visits by cabinet members to the region, leading up to an extraordinary return visit by Mr. Bush planned for Monday, directed administration officials not to respond to attacks from Democrats on the relief efforts, and sought to move the blame for the slow response to Louisiana state officials, according to Republicans familiar with the White House plan.

The effort is being directed by Mr. Bush's chief political adviser, Karl Rove, and his communications director, Dan Bartlett. It began late last week after Congressional Republicans called White House officials to register alarm about what they saw as a feeble response by Mr. Bush to the hurricane, according to Republican Congressional aides."...
"In a reflection of what has long been a hallmark of Mr. Rove's tough political style, the administration is also working to shift the blame away from the White House and toward officials of New Orleans and Louisiana who, as it happens, are Democrats.
That line of argument was echoed throughout the day, in harsher language, by Republicans reflecting the White House line.

In interviews, these Republicans said that the normally nimble White House political operation had fallen short in part because the president and his aides were scattered outside Washington on vacation, leaving no one obviously in charge at a time of great disruption. Mr. Rove and Mr. Bush were in Texas, while Vice President Dick Cheney was at his Wyoming ranch.

Mr. Bush's communications director, Nicolle Devenish, was married this weekend in Greece, and a number of Mr. Bush's political advisers - including Ken Mehlman, the Republican National Committee chairman - attended the wedding.
Ms. Rice did not return to Washington until Thursday, after she was spotted at a Broadway show and shopping for shoes, an image that Republicans said buttressed the notion of a White House unconcerned with tragedy.
These officials said that Mr. Bush and his political aides rapidly changed course in what they acknowledged was a belated realization of the situation's political ramifications. As is common when this White House confronts a serious problem, management was quickly taken over by Mr. Rove and a group of associates including Mr. Bartlett. Neither man responded to requests for comment."

"No one here is an against an honest assessment of failures"
All I is see is "deflection shields up" when any possible smidgeon of blame might attach to Bush or GOP leaders, with attempts to pass the buck anywhere else. As a strategy for leading a country, denial of responsibility and accountability is doomed to failure.

Sure I disliked and disagreed with GWB long before Katrina and to me (and the majority of US citizens {see today's polls}) GWB's response to Katrina reeked of the arrogance, detachment, and incompetence that has characterized his administration. From his mother claiming that evacuees were "disadvantaged anyway" so a filthy camp in the AstroDome was "working out well for them", to GWB telling homeless people about Trent Lott's "fantastic house" that he was going to rebuild and how GWB was "looking forward to sitting on the porch".
From WP
"When it was his turn to talk, Bush congratulated the governors, then turned to FEMA Director Mike Brown and said, "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job."
Addressing another member of his party, Sen. Trent Lott (Miss.), Bush promised: "Out of the rubble of Trent Lott's house -- he lost his entire house -- there's going to be a fantastic house. And I'm looking forward to sitting on the porch."

From Knight-Ridder
"Bush did not visit with any angry evacuees in New Orleans. As Katrina approached, Bush and his top aides spent days apparently unaware that New Orleans might be flooded - despite many warnings, some from inside his own administration. Afterwards, he heaped praise on officials responsible for the slow and initially disorganized disaster-relief efforts. His aides dismiss demands that Bush hold someone accountable for failure, saying that's merely a distracting "blame game."

None of this should be a surprise. Bush has a long record of avoiding critics, rewarding loyalty even in the face of failure and shunning - even punishing - those who disagree with him. It's a management style that shapes how he governs - disdaining compromise with Democrats in Congress, for example - and one that brushes off whole sectors of the American electorate.

That could come back to haunt him, as is now evident in the two problems - Iraq and Katrina - that together have sent his approval ratings to the lowest levels of his presidency and threaten his second-term agenda.

His style of isolating himself from unwelcome voices pleases his core supporters, who don't want him to compromise, but it sacrifices the broader public appeal that helped Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton weather second-term setbacks. One new poll, from the independent Pew Research Center, suggests he is losing support even from Republicans and conservatives.

To Rep. Christopher Shays, R-Conn., the Bush administration's response to Katrina suggested "a real sense of arrogance. Loyalty and never admitting a mistake matters more than the truth. It has a Nixon feel to me."

Bush allies insist he is engaged and pressing the government to fix all hurricane-related problems. But the public isn't much impressed, judging by his plummeting polls. One new survey by independent pollster John Zogby shows Bush would lose a hypothetical election to every modern president, including the much-maligned Jimmy Carter. "

So, Lurker, you can fight your rear-guard action, deflecting any shred of blame away from GWB and blaming everyone else in sight, but outside the echo chamber, it just re-inforces people's impression that GWB and his core supporters have lost touch with reality.

Hey Hyper,

Define bigot. Hint: Look in a mirror.

You got me Tom. Wow politicians acting like politicians. Who knew? Anymore revelations?

If this improves FEMA's performance, are you against it even though it helps Bush look better?

I almost missed this....

Are we really going to bring what politicians' mothers say into the debate now? Does this apply to dead realtives too? How many generations back should the records be examined?

HyperSphere01 #19

I have been reading this site and it appears to be mostly white christian bigots. I hope I am not out of place, but I call it like I see it.

Brave HyperSphere, do call anytime. Your commentary is as perceptive as it is insightful.

The tide is certainly turning and good riddance.

Dunno exactly what you mean, but doubtless we could each find use for those sentiments.

Tom Volckhausen #20

Aside from being a white christian bigot (or so I've just been reliably informed), I too have been a lifelong Democrat, though lately a primary-deprived Independent. Certainly there are crowds of VWRC RoveBot clones out there, awaiting the good fight. But discussions here and elsewhere don't have to take that form. While I see these free-for-all barfights as a bug not a feature, there are those on each side who will take anything as an excuse to join in.

Psst. Why not take a page from Donkelephant or elsewhere in the Moderate Center, in the form of your criticisms (not their substance). When you've been inspired to do that here at WoC, I've noticed that other folks--'enemies' included--listen better.

"Please explain how you fix government?? Government in the US is inefficient by design. Corruption at the state and local level add another level of inefficiency. Good government is a pipe dream. All you can really hope for is not to bad government that doesn't get you killed (or kill you) while waiting for them to act"

Good government is not a pipe dream and the above philosophy leads to a self-defeating vicious circle of toxic low expectations.

Good government can be defined by observing what happens in it's absence. Much as I dislike the current administration, the US is far from Somalia and even the Bush administration provides many public services so well that we ignore their function as a fish ignores the sea.

Those who benefit from good roads, schools, sewers, hospitals, airports, etc.,etc. often cannot imagine how much more difficult their lives would be without them.

European governments provide all these services, in addition to national health care and a much strengthened social safety net. Their success is an existence proof that "good government" is not a pipe dream.

Having spent lots of time in less-developed countries as well as Europe, my answer to "Please explain how you fix government?" is that it takes an educated and engaged public committed to the democratic process. Democracy is a self-correcting system, with all the lag times, error budgets, and changing setpoints that self-correction requires.

Bigot:

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I was raised Republican and only recently have decided Republicans don't represent my interests.

I gave Bush a chance, but since I live in Texas, I already knew he is only as good as those he surrounds himself with.

I would advise everybody to take a long look in the mirror. How many times have you used racial slurs? I am a white christian male, but I am not as stupid as you. I understand one day we may be on the other side.

-Hype

We are all people and should be treated as such. Food and water are needed or we will die. Food and water should have been dropped the very first or at the worse, second day. Food and water should have already been on the planes Sunday. There is no reason for this disaster to have played out like this. The buck stops with the President. Especially since this one wants this great legacy.

-Hype

The focus is not just on New Orleans. You can argue all you want. Trash your talking points.

The entire region underwent the same transformation. This is federal boys and girls. Praise Anderson Cooper for being on the front in a real war. A war between man and nature. Nature won, and our federal government didn't care enough to turn on CNN. Now our federal government makes excuses instead of owning up to one of the biggest failures in recent history. How can you defend the government if you watched the coverage during the crisis. It seems many tuned in too late. (About a week late)

-Hype

"The underlying lesson learned is that government is not all powerful, you need to take care of yourselff and ordinary americans will always pitch in and help when the going gets tough. Government was the problem in New Orleans"

Government is not all powerful? Government stopped potential relief efforts, didn't it?

"When the last lawsuit is settled, the ownership of this problem is going to rest mostly on the City and State. Feds will get their ownership but mostly of lack to total effort stymied or made worse by political fighting by Blanco."

Now wouldn't that be a hoot. The government asking for more money from the state tax payers to pay the tax payers for their local and state government failures. Then the state asks the national leaders to open their pocket books and bail them out. Talk about a hood wink. The attorney gets rich and the suffrage goes unabated. I think it's grand we can figure out more ways to pour more cost and expense on top of the current devastation.

As with every calamity the first thing that comes out is people jumping to conclusions versus getting the facts. The chicken little syndrome has struck again and everyone looks to blame someone other than themselves for the situations they find themselves in. As though we could blame Condi Rice for buying shoes while the suffering continued. In the back of my mind I just knew Condi had all the answers and the magic wand that would save the gulf coast. Yet she did nothing. How absurd can people and the media get. How far can politicians push the envelope to gain some moral authority about the plight of humanity. As we look to blame Mr. Rove for taping the mouths shut of the current administration we might ask ourselves if these people are smart enough to watch and listen before they open their mouths and add to the problems instead of solve them. As our congressional leaders shout to the roof of congressional hall about the injustice and waste hours and days of precious little time just remember we paid to hear every last word that has done nothing to mitigate or resolve the issues currently facing this nation. The impatience of it all. The facts will come out and the truths will be revealed. The decisions made or not made as the case may be will ultimately need to be explained. The question that remains is will people listen to the explanations and judge accordingly or will they retain their bias.

To be honest given all the money collected for government programs one would expect that government would do exactly what it has stated it will do with the funds. Sadly today this is still not the case. For those that didn't notice July 4th was Tax Payers Independence Day but from the looks of things it seems as though this nation will be moving that date to a much later date in the year come 2006. Just some food for thought when we all finally get around to weighing the cost versus the benefit and mitigation of risk.

HyperSphere #28,

This is federal boys and girls.

These are federal boys and girls, perhaps?

Please help me in keeping the discussion on this thread focused on thoughtful commentary, on material relevant to the original post. Thanks.

Volckhausen is hilarious! He is proved dead wrong in his most strenuous assertions, then he turns around and pretends he was right all along! Gosh, how convenient to have such a memory sieve. Blame Bush, goddamit, whatever the facts. Just f'n blame Bush, goddamit.

Look, government is designed to be slow and inefficient for the purpose of it NOT becoming efficient at centralizing power and NOT becoming efficient at killing us, though inefficiency obviously can kill as well.

But you can't have it both ways.

We're a nation of laws and we have built a plethora of laws and precedents that, contrary to always protecting, usually mean less protection. We are so concerned with liability that we cannot move without first insisting on being indemnified from the risk.

Even the R.T. Stafford Act has indemnification built into which is why they demand civilians have direct contracts with them while at the same time making the contracting process extremely difficult.

It's a nightmare that will not be solved by commissions or committees but by committed managers at all levels working to improve processes and by states putting effective thresholds in place for calling on federal assistance including from the DoD.

I, for one, do not want to see the federal laws restricting the instances under which a president can call an emergency and call out the military on our own land to change. It serves its purpose very well and even this tragedy does not change that need or insert a new precedent for such declarations.

I would also like to add my voice to the person that noted the civil defense structure. At least under that structure, civilians knew when they volunteered what their responsibilities and areas of operation were. They could get right to the job.

Today, civilian volunteers not directly under the auspices of red cross or active ems, were not coordinated, lacked direct chain of command and communications with central groups.

We're acting as if, aside from the military, our hired EMS and police could be equipped or have enough members to really function in a catastrophe like this.

The real failure in federal and local governments around the country is that they have failed to engage their civilian population in the concept of volunteering, protecting and serving in local capacity as well as part of a greater whole.

Part of this may be because the government has been reluctant to act like we are at war and has not really pushed that down to the civilian population. Secondly, they have failed to link volunteering and civil defense to protecting and serving their local commumities from all threats, including natural OR man made disasters.

Do you hear or see radio or television adds about volunteering for that? You see posters or other active attempts to get volunteers and organize local groups?

It's all decentralized and individual groups that operate under their own auspices with little connection to those that don't.

It's not government we need, it's civilians with decent organization and command structure, under an indemnified organization, with volunteers with specific skills that can be quickly organized and moved to affected areas.

Sounds like the NG don't it? But civilians, none government related and non military, are doers and that's what we need.

Doers, not talkers, not lawyers, not government officials.

CDs, civilian doers, civil defense whatever you want to call them.

Tom, your performance has been stunning in how each and every time your claim has been completely rebutted, you manage to continue to hold the opinion that the President is at fault.

Do you have any idea of the meaning of continuing to hold a belief no matter how much reality contradicts it?

There is a definition of insanity buried in there somewhere.

Welcome to the third world, everyone!!

White Christian bigots?

I'm a white Jewish bigot. I feel slighted.

BTW I have been a regular racist here since about early 2000.

When the wash is done on this dirty laundry I believe LA will become a Republican State. There are moves afoot to impeach Blank0.

If the Dems are so good at politics why are there so many poor undereducated people in LA?

Well sure we have a lot of gang problems in America. We have given them certain drug distribution franchises. What I like to call Republican Socialism: price supports for criminals.

Funny thing is the Dems like this sort of thing too. Hence the attack on tobacco sales.

I guess both parties agree: criminality in America is insufficiently profitable. Thus the need for price supports a.k.a. prohibitions.

You would almost think they stopped teaching alcohol prohibition in history class.

#32,

We need more ham radio operators to coordinate civilian efforts. I'd like to see 5% to 10% of the population involved.

Dave Schuler has a very good list of suggestions that are worthy of debate. I would second his idea for strengthening Civil Defense. I'm also in favor of more drills and tests of the current system and of a strong effort to standardize communication systems for all major cities.

I believe that the incident post mortem will reveal that the failure of the NOPD communications due to the inadequacy of its backup power generation is going to prove to have been a major contribution to the lawlessness. That and the fact that more than a third of the cops boogied at the first rain drop while some of those who stayed did so to take advantage of "shopping" opportunities.

#37,

Did I mention the need for more amateur radio operators?

I saw a flood emergency in Nebraska once where hams were stationed at every major intersection in the National Guard patrolled area. Local police also were at these intersections.

What this allows is traffic routing to be handled outside the emergency areas. Thus a local breakdown of communications need not be catastrophic provided power can be generated. It doesnt have to be much. About 50 to 100 watts ought to do nicely. With a battery to store the excess generating capacity when in the recieve mode.

#25 - Tom
"European governments provide all these services, in addition to national health care and a much strengthened social safety net. Their success is an existence proof that "good government" is not a pipe dream."

Was it two or three years ago that 16,000 old French people died of hot weather. You call this a success?

Excellent collection of facts and rumors:

“In 1995, the Washington Monthly wrote about FEMA’s miraculous turnaround after its abysmal performance dealing with Hurricane Andrew. In that story was this tidbit from Jeffrey Itell, who conducted a massive study of FEMA’s operations, which uncovered that FEMA had extensive powers according to the Stafford Act that, to everyone’s detriment, it was not exercising:

We found that without state requests, FEMA could assess the catastrophic area, assess what assistance the state needed, start mobilizing that relief, present its recommendations to the governor, and, if necessary … get in the governor’s face to force the issue of accepting federal help.

This should all still apply — unless the Department of Homeland Security nullified these common-sense FEMA powers when it subsumed the agency a couple years ago. (If it did, DHS has a lot of explaining to do.) ”

See: http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/thedebate/2005/09/facts_and_rumor.html

#25,

Tom,

Perhaps you can explain the long waiting lists for free health care.

What that says is that health care is rationed in Europe. Just differently than in America.

As usual the well off go elsewhere. A lot of them come to America. Which helps subsidise health care for the American poor.

So in fact you may be right. Socialized health care is a boon to the poor. Just not the European poor.

Federal response will always be slower than local response. The federal government has always been too big and unwieldy, and will always be that. Obvious. To be expected. No number of hearings or re-organization plans will change that. Federal government is a clumsy oaf. Always was, at least since the 20th century began.

That's why the locals have to be competent for a timely response. But these locals were incompetent idiots. Well, they were elected by somebody, somebody, I wonder who? Were the elected by the same people they victimized?

"Did I mention the need for more amateur radio operators?"

Why, yes you did. The only teeny, tiny link missing in your statement was that of the necessity for centralized authority capable of prioritizing effective response. Patrol cars, ambulances and fire engines are all equipped with precisely the type of transceivers that you describe - with their own generators and storage batteries! I believe that that many military vehicles may be similiarly equipped.

Ad hoc com nets manned by ham operators have worked well in many situations and undoubtedly saved many lives. I don't believe that they are the appropriate answer to problems in urban centers. I just can't quite visualize a ham club rushing to South Central in the event of a catastrophic earthquake any more than I can visualize one going into the Ninth Ward of NO.

News you won't see on Instapundit:

"If you didn't hear the report this evening on National Public Radio by Laura Sullivan and Daniel Zwerdling, go to npr.org and listen to it. According to the report, state, local and federal officials from FEMA had worked out detailed hurricane response plans more than 24 hours before Katrina hit.

National Guard forces were on alert and ready to respond as of Monday, but orders were never issued. The report doesn't indicate who should have issued those orders, but the implication was clearly that it should have come from Washington.

But the real kicker was this: The report stated that Bush met with Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin on Friday aboard Air Force One and told them he would release the National Guard only if Blanco, Nagin, and the Guard took their orders from Washington.

While the report doesn't state so directly, it clearly implies that Bush intentionally kept the Guard out of New Orleans for four days. If so, he directly contributed to the deaths of a still uncounted number of New Orleans residents."

Given that the NG forces in LA remain under the control of Gov. Blanco and have never been under the control of the Feds, what's your point? The "clear implication" of the report is false. Federalizing the NG without the consent of the governor (which was withheld) involves a declaration of a state of insurrection.

IMO - Orders to "take them out and shoot them" regarding Blanco and Nagin might very well have saved lives. Any dictator would have done so and cries from the Left that Bush should have done so are very predictable.

What we're seeing is that the local authorities are trying to pass the buck for their own stupidity toward the Feds, and the Bush-hating national press eagerly goes along.

Rick B.,

If you had read my post you might have noticed that the ham operators were used as adjuncts to local police and military.

In addition they handle a lot of "is my relative alive" or "I'm alive" type traffic. In this hurricane they helped co-ordinate some of the initial movement of supplies. In fact in the early days health and welfare type traffic was prohibited on some nets to expedite flows of goods and personel.

They are one more piece of the defence in depth idea.

In addition think of what it would mean to have every tenth person in America conversant with electrical safety. Handy in an emergency no?

That's not true.

This is a superb log of the events as they occured, complete with irrefutable evidence of the federal govt. dropping the ball. (the links listed on the site are to The White House, DOD and Office of the Governor websites that show the original memorandums)Timeline is here:

http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline

You can see where the Governor requested Federal assistance on August 27, two days before the hurricane made landfall.

Here is an excerpt from the letter to President Bush from Kathleen Blanco. You can see it for yourself here:

http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976

"I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster."

Here is an excerpt of the President's response:
You can read the complete memorandum here:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html

"Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency. Debris removal and emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance, will be provided at 75 percent Federal funding."

Now here's my question: If the president knew the gravity of the situation and ordered federal assistance, why, when it was known by Tuesday FEMA was not responding the way they had been ordered, did he not mobilize another course of action by the military or Homeland Security? Our military is trained to be extremely efficient in the event of disaster. The U.S.S. Bataan was even waiting off the coast with doctors, a full shelter, food, and water, yet they waited for the president to give the order to assist. Did Fema drop the ball? Yes. Did Homeland Security drop the ball? Yes. Did the president drop the ball? Yes.
Should all of these people be held accountable for the lack of assistance Louisiana received that was requested?
Definitely.

If nothing else the president is guilty of resting on his laurels and inattentiveness. Whatever happened to "The buck stops here?"

The incompetent locals Blanco and Nagin have got the scutworkers out throwing blame again. This story will be sorted out, but not by the usual suspects. Blanco refused to allow Bush the free hand he sought, to get competent help into the city thus bypassing the corrupt New Orleans and Louisiana establishment. She stalled until it was too late. What an incompetent idiot. She was certainly not up to the task.

From the website of the Bataan:

The multi-purpose amphibious assault ship USS Bataan (LHD 5) began service Tuesday night...Crewmembers from Helicopter Sea Control Squadron 28...launched three MH-53 Sea Dragons and two MH-60 Knight Hawks Tuesday night and again at daylight Wednesday..."My crew and I airlifted nearly 100 people from the roof of a building and onto a field where ambulances and busses were waiting for them”

Tuesday: that would be the day after the hurricane--basically, as soon as they could arrive in its wake and get helos up.

Could we please stop with this stupid claim that the Bataan is un/under used?

Mountain Girl, why is it that you do not notice that the Feds did not "drop the ball"? Why is it that you do not notice that Blanco's letter requested nothing in advance from the Federal government other than funding for the state's own efforts?

Perhaps, Robin, "Mountain Girl" is Blanco?

John, that would explain some things.

An interesting look at how prompt the federal response was compared to other hurricanes. Quite a contrast to the general flatline media shrill.