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December 2, 2005HateWatch Briefing 2005-12-02by Hatewatch at December 2, 2005 12:55 AM
Welcome! This briefing will be looking hard at the dark places the mainstream media sometimes seem determined to look away from, to better understand our declared enemies on their own terms and without illusions. Our goal is to bring you some of the top jihadi rants, idiotarian seething, and old-school Jew-hatred from around the world, leaving you more informed, more aware, and pretty disgusted every month. This Winds of Change.NET HateWatch briefing is brought to you by Omri Ceren of Mere Rhetoric. Past briefings and posts on related topics can be found here. HIGHLIGHTED TOPICS
Comments
#1 from tom vikander at 3:49 am on Dec 02, 2005
Dear Hatewatch, The sky would only fall for Tom if his side lost the war. I suppose we could lengthen the "Hopeful Note" section to target him directly, but when a guy openly expresses support for al-Qaeda, why bother? Though when you consider that last bit, the effort to minimize this sort of thing becomes pretty transparent. Afraid Tom is more an example of some of the trends identified in our CIVIS: Hatred Rising topic archive than a legitimate critic of same.
#3 from tom vikander at 4:47 pm on Dec 02, 2005
Where's my grain of salt ? tom - if you support al Qaeda, then I guess you represent the pro-hate contingent. Of course you would object when someone criticizes hate. ..and you're also opposed to American military actions. No surprises there. Hate has killed more people worldwide than any nuclear weapon. All the Rwandan hutus needed was some hate, some radio broadcasts and a few machetes to wage genocide. Al Qaeda's brand of wahhabism has killed millions. As a representative of the pro-hate contingent, why don't you tell us about how hate and genocide can help the world. How would reducing thousands of mothers, fathers and children to ash benefit you, personally? Tell us why your opinions should matter. Tom:
#6 from Matt McKeon at 10:46 pm on Dec 02, 2005
If we stop trying to figure out the other side, we've given up. The person on the other side is not evil. They just have a different perspective. How does saying this make Chris Matthews an idiot? "The other side" is not a monolithic entity in the WoT. There's a spectrum of opposition, from the Egyptian who vaguely resents American influence in the Middle East, to the Palestinian who waves a green flag at Hamas rallies, to the angry Pakistani man who shelters al Qaeda operatives because his brother was disappeared by US forces, to the child-murdering Syrian terrorist in Iraq. I would argue that only the last is truly capital-E Evil -- the others may be moral people with a different (sometimes clouded) perspective. We can't arrest, kill or dominate every anti-US person in the world; it is only by understanding their perspective that we can effectively prosecute the WoT in the long term.
#7 from Jim Rockford at 7:15 am on Dec 03, 2005
Matt -- the "perspective" of the other side is illiberalism. You might recall the last bout we had with it; from 1933-1945. This Illiberalism is not concentrated on "Volk und Boden" within some gargantuan military empire, but distributed killing. It is all based on the same thing. Complete and total rejection of the modern world and hatred of scapegoats for the total failure of Islam to provide a model for society that "works" to provide wealth and prosperity for societies under it's rule. There has been ZERO ZILCH NADA NONE invention from the Islamic world of any note in over 800 years. No notable scientific progress, no patents, and certainly no businesses. NOKIA in 2002 had a higher set of gross revenues than the entire NON-OIL exports of the Arab world. Without Oil the Muslims would be completely and totally irrelevant. Is the sky falling? Yes. It was falling in a different way with Hitler's beer hall putsch in Munich in 1922, it was falling in 1933 when he took office (legally), it was falling in 1938 in the Munich conference. We don't have a massive organized state following "blud und boden" but the notion of the Ummah is just as illiberal and anti-modern. As your buddy Zarqawi says, "you submit or we slaughter." THAT is their message. They are angry that they are failurs and Islam is a failure so they resort to terror ... basically Tookie Williams with a philosophy and international organization based on religion.
Matt - It's worth noting that all of the 'anti-US' forces aren't in the Middle East. When he visited Damascus, why did British politician George Galloway say:
So I say to you, citizens of the last Arab country, this is a time for courage, for unity, for wisdom, for determination, to face these enemies with the dignity your [Syrian] president has shown, and I believe, God willing, we will prevail and triumph, fwa-salam aleikum...to a cheering Ba'thist audience? Why did Noam Chomsky tell the Egyptian press that America was planning to wipe out millions of Afghan muslims in a silent genocide? Why were a group of Italian peace activists collecting money to aid the insurgents in their campaign against America and the Iraqi people? Why did David Duke also travel to Syria to express solidarity with his fellow fascists? Your assumtion that "the other side" resides in the Middle East is biased, to say the least. In a war against an enemy that uses hate as a weapon, it's always good to know as much as you can about that enemy. Thousands of men and women in the Middle East have protested against terrorism. Even if they're not big supporters of the US, I would consider them to be on 'our side'. Millions of people in the Middle East have been oppressed and killed by the Arabists' current campaign of ethnic cleansing. Few of those people were American, few were probably pro-US, but they are still the victims of our enemies. Thousands of Iraqis are opposed to terrorism. Thousands of Europeans, and some Americans, support it. You're right, we can't arrest, kill or dominate every anti-US person in the world. But if we listen to the voices from 'the other side', and if we follow their advice, we will lose this war.
#9 from Oz at 7:50 pm on Dec 03, 2005
Jim: Matt makes a good point. It is the violent idealogues that need to be stopped. Bombastic rhetoric about victory just glosses over what it means. Does it mean A) kill every Muslim who dislikes Americans, B) "liberate" every country that refuses to bend its knee to American dominance, or C) to keep spouting hysterical rhetoric until everyone become enough of an anti-Muslim bigot for you? Which one of these points defines victory for you?
#10 from tom vikander at 10:15 pm on Dec 03, 2005
The lesson of the fable is that the sky is NOT falling (never does, never will), and the message for those thinky enough is don't ever fall for the type of anxiety generating list produced by "Hatewatch". It's frankly a bummer and whosoever writes it ought to be compelled to also write "Lovewatch". Mary, Joe has it wrong. I support Al Kapp, not al Queda. I'm not "pro hate". gimme a break ! Omri, my grain of salt is what I was looking for after reading Joe's tiresome commentary about ME rather than about my post. Tom - no, you support al-Qaeda. These were your words, and nobody compelled you to speak them:
People who say things like this can legitimately be called to account for it - especially when they proceed to opine on topics like Islamist hate. I would rightfully take the opinions of a man who expressed admiration for Hitler with a mountain of salt, were he then to opine that concerns over neo-nazi activities were hysterical. You, sir, have chosen whom you stand with. You cheer the beheaders of hostages on film, the murderers of children and of crowds gathering outside mosques to pray. You cheer for, and support, a combination of foreign theocrat fanatics whose goal is quite literally global slavery, and the former einsatzgruppen and torturers of a fascist regime. That makes you, sir, an exponent and supporter of hate. Hence utterly, completely unqualified to be taken seriously when venturing opinions regarding the seriousness of same. Or of pretty much anything else, for that matter.
#12 from T. J. Madison at 7:27 am on Dec 04, 2005
>>You, sir, have chosen whom you stand with. You cheer the beheaders of hostages on film, the murderers of children and of crowds gathering outside mosques to pray. You cheer for, and support, a combination of foreign theocrat fanatics whose goal is quite literally global slavery, and the former einsatzgruppen and torturers of a fascist regime. This may be true. That said, there are those who are violently resisting the US occupation who are not fascists, not theocrats, not terrorists, and not former supporters of Saddam. They likely aren't the majority, but they do exist. >>Ted Rall believes American troops are murderers and rapists and torturers - and he's willing to draw crude cartoons to prove it. There seems to be quite a bit of evidence that at least SOME American troops are murderers and rapists and torturers. No crude cartoons are necessary to demonstrate that. It would be just as unreasonable to conclude that ALL US troops are torturers and rapists as it would be to conclude that ALL Iraqi insurgents are terrorist decapitators.
#13 from T. J. Madison at 7:29 am on Dec 04, 2005
>>We can't arrest, kill or dominate every anti-US person in the world; it is only by understanding their perspective that we can effectively Actually, Matt, yes we can. We have thousands of nuclear weapons. If Mecca and Medina turned to radioactive ash tomorrow, the impotence of the Muslim fanatics' False God Allah would be revealed for all to see. If Iraqi towns with a significant insurgent presence were bathed in nerve gas, "our problems [t]here would be over very quickly." All it would cost us would be our humanity. The weapons are already bought and paid for. TJ's point in #12 may be true. But such support, once expressed, is not thus divisible. It was al-Qaeda's Zarqawi who ran Fallujah as the nerve center of the effort Tom Vikander supports - and its accompanying torture chambers, snuff film factories, etc. That Shi'ites are targeted for Klan-style sectarian attacks at their mosques (burning churches, anyone?) and other gathering places, as a deliberate policy of ethnic bullying led by many of the same people who once fed them feet-first through industrial shredders, is also undeniable. That children are targeted as acts of deliberate policy by the people Tom supports is also undeniable. And Tom cannot excuse his support for fascism with mealy-mouthed denials that these are not the people he supports. He did not qualify, nor would such qualification be persuasive in light of the overwhelming evidence re: the true goals, nature, and agenda of the people he lionizes. It's a set of goals and agendas that is intimately connected with many of the stories we regularly feature here in Hatewatch. And that is whyone vert important reason why Winds will continue to run the feature. I can understand - perfectly - why Tom would seek to shut Hatewatch down. Talking about this stuff isn't congenial to the Islamofascist enemy he sides with. To which we reply: too bad.
#15 from T. J. Madison at 10:39 pm on Dec 04, 2005
Joe, let's look at Mr. Vikander's statement very literally: "Iraq is a nation that got rolled over with tanks twice in the last decade without hardly defending itself at all. One can only be amazed at the current efforts of the patriot freedomfighters in Iraq to throw out the foreign occupiers." I'm willing to bet that at least a few US soldiers and a few Iraqi civilians are serious about about bringing freedom to Iraq, and consider the eviction of "foreign occupiers" like Zarqawi from Iraq to be a high priority. Perhaps these are the "freedom fighters" Mr. Vikander is referring to?
#16 from tom vikander at 11:14 pm on Dec 04, 2005
I'm thinking that Joe's style is the foaming -at -the -mouth stuff, from the reaction I've garnered from him. Thank goodnes there are cooler heads such as T.J Madison's here, who can carry an academic discussion without going snakey. Joe quit your "you" statements; I've had enough of that oppressive device !
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