"Here are the people I'd really, really like to avoid bombing"

I'm sure it was said in jest, but I'm not sure how many Americans would've taken it in jest if someone had said the same thing about Americans protesting for their rights.

I completely understand and totally agree that there are really wide gaps in the way muslim world looks at the outside world, but I hope many would realise that there is a gap in how the world also sees the non-fundamentalist muslim world.

Sachin -

No jest at all...there is a fairly heated debate on this blog (between me and Tom and Trent, two co-bloggers) over the immediacy of the threat posed by Iran.

I believe that the threat is real, but that war can and should still be avoided; they don't. Part of why I think it should be avoided if possible is the existence within Iran of what I believe to be a large number of groups like the one in the picture. If we can find ways to reach out and help them, I am confident the Iranian people could remove the threat themselves.

A.L.

For what it's worth, AL, I think you and Tom and Trent are all indulging in wishful thinking. I don't see the Iranian people overthrowing the mullahs in the forseeable future, certainly not before the mullahs get the bomb. Therefore, I agree with Tom and Trent that war is the best option for us. In the best of all possible worlds, we would turn Tehran into a parking lot. Unfortunately, the American public has no more stomach for war, and I'm not sure we have the capability even if we had the will. So I'm extremely pessimistic about Iran. It will get the bomb and it will use it on Israel and/or us.

In my view, Iranians are generally more positive about west than its neighbours, even though the general positivity might not be near the acceptability threshold.
Its surrounded by Sunni majority peoples (except many Iraqis) who consider Shias themselves as kafirs. And according to them, kafirs are meant to be killed. Iranians could be the modern world's best friends in a neighbourhood full of non-muslim haters.

May be, show flexibility on their nuclear options, and ask them to open up their society more. Showing flexibility may not mean, letting them make nuke weapons, but may be to buy time until people power takes over the Ahmadinejads of Iran.

My 2c that may be kept in mind when options of war is discussed (not sure if they might already have been discussed).

AL -- I also think you are guilty of wishful thinking. Certainly I would prefer the Mullahs overthrown, and have lots of sympathy for these women (who are astonishingly brave).

However, the presence of the White Rose folks (Sophie Scholl) did nothing to stop the Holocaust. I would argue these brave folks are the analogy in Iran. Which has shown no signs of being overthrown since, oh say 1979. Despite considerable domestic pressure for liberalization.

Bottom line: Iran's latest threat to cause the US "pain" and destruction is just more evidence that they will indeed nuke us; and Israel. They've said what they will do and I take them at their word.

Of course they will nuke us. Their experience with us is invading our Embassy and holding our people with impunity. Designed to invite aggression.

Jim -

"could" is not the same as "will", and while I worry about them slipping a nuke out, folks who know better than I do - like the Shin Bet - aren't acting as though they think the threat is imminent.

Famous pacifist Tommy Frank is saying "I doubt that we will ever see an armed conflict with Iran. I hope so as a tax payer in my own country, not as a general, because I am an old, retired guy..."

So I wouldn't be stocking up on Iodine pills just yet...

A.L.

One way the Iranian population could display its famous pro-West sentiments is by moving out of the cities that are known to be hosting nuclear sites, thus allowing US to attack those sites without the fear of massive collateral damages. Shouldnt the famous Iranian blogs campaign for this movement.

the majority of Iranians are pro-western culture people and they have nothing to do with the stupid people like Ahmadinejad.

I agree with Armed Liberal on this

I don't necessarily see a conflict between hoping that AL is right, while fearing that Tom and Trent are...

Quick, put Iran in control of the Women's Rights forum at the UN.

"One way the Iranian population could display its famous pro-West sentiments is by moving out of the cities that are known to be hosting nuclear sites, thus allowing US to attack those sites without the fear of massive collateral damages"

One way Americans could display their support for regime change in Iraq and deprive the Mullahs of resources to build nukes would be to stop driving their cars and running their furnaces. The odds of mass Iranian pro-bombing migration is far better.