I think that you identify the key to her lack of credibility - she did not have a smartly run prison where others came in and coerced her unit into atrocities; instead she had a completely undisciplined and out of control unit for which the abuses were consistent with the rest of the conditions under her command.

I find the reference to an Israeli odd - I can't figure out the context from your note.

At best, she was sloppy.

Thanks for interesting report -- I note her hinting about higher-ups feeds conspiracy Bush-hate, but also allows her deniability. "I never said THAT."

I wish you could follow up on the female soldiers dying from lack of fluids. Also on the death records of those in US custody -- I'd guess there's a site.

The military is all about accountability up and down the chain of command. General Karpinski failed in her role, plain and simple. However, many others failed who were not punished. It's undeniable that a lot of careers were protected from this disaster of leadership. Senior officers are supposed to do one thing: provide leadership. So why was there no oversight or leadership accountability for Granier and his cronies? The officers and senior NCO's assigned above Granier and the rest deserved stiff punishments as well.

A huge problem in the military today is lack of accountability for flag-ranked officers, who routinely get slaps on the wrist or early retirement for crimes that land an enlisted person in a court martial and jail. It's really a travesty.

It's clear Karpinski wasn't running an elite unit. They didn't get first pick of supplies -- the soldiers had bugs in their MREs, and the food they fed prisoners was buggy too, which was the complaint that led to at least one of the prison riots. Low morale all round.

Clearly if Karpinski had been a better officer she would have found ways to fix the problems. She'd have gotten her troops good food and run regular inspections to find problems and fix them. She might have organised a system for women to go to the latrine in armed pairs, or allowed them chamber pots etc -- if she knew about the problem at the time.

If she'd been on top of the interrogation problem she could have thrown her weight around to the point she got signed orders, which would have been a giant help at her court-martial. But other officers reported that she was depressed and spent a lot of time alone doing nothing. Not to defend her, but if she'd been given a clear communication from higher-ups that they didn't want to be annoyed by reports from her about problems she couldn't solve herself and she'd get no support in anything she did, that might result in some low morale on her part. If there were only so many MREs available and some of them were buggy, somebody was going to get the bad ones. A Reserve unit guarding prisoners.... If Karpinski had been all that good she would have gotten some other assignment.

Here's a quick background with some opinions. Most of the factoids came from the Tagubi report. I hope the opinions are obviously opinion.

When we went into iraq we had a critical shortage of arabic-speakers. This is not a surprise, if we trained sufficient soldiers in all the languages we might need they wouldn't have time to do much else, and getting taught one language in depth takes a significant part of their enlistment. So we hired contractors to provide translators. Titan was one of those contractors. In theory they were supposed to hire american citizens with security clearances. Needless to say there was a shortage of those too, and to fill the critical need for translators they supplied what they could find. We wound up with some egyptian and some israeli contract translators, I don't know how many but it could have been a significant number.

Contract employees were not subject to UCMJ, and of course they weren't subject to iraqi law, and they weren't particularly liable in the USA for what they did in iraq. They were above the law. If they annoyed the military too much somebody might send a report to the contractor who would pull them from iraq. This was a punishment as they were making a whole lot of money. And a contractor who brought in too many guys who didn't fit in might eventually have his contract pulled. But there wasn't a lot of penalty for misbehavior. If a couple of contractors in a white SUV decided to grab an iraqi woman off the street and rape her, chances are nobody who could punish them would ever hear about it. Except iraqis might shoot at them or at some other white SUV.

So, the order came down that it was OK to do strenuous interrogation. The MI guys were doing it all over. And they got the bright idea to use regular prison guards to keep the prisoners awake all the time the interrogators were asleep between the clean white sheets. And the chain of command was so weak in this one location that the MPs didn't think about who they were responsible to or even who should be informed. They just did it, and expanded on it. Looking back, it's clear that keeping prisoners naked or in women's underwear was a standard technique. Putting them in stress positions and kicking them back into position when they collapsed was standard. Threatening them with dogs was standard. Waterboarding was standard. Sleep deprivation was standard. Attacking electrodes to their genitals may have been standard. Having women insult and embarrass naked prisoners was standard. What was not standard about the photographs was smearing prisoners in excrement, handcuffing them into pyramids, and having sex in front of blindfolded naked prisoners. Also taking photographs that reach the public. I don't see any particular reason to believe that the intelligence guys asked for photos. Though if they did, they could easily get their copies and leave copies with the idiots they asked for them from.

Lots of people didn't see anything wrong with the photos. At least one guy on base used them for his screensaver. Somebody sent them home to relatives, which was how the media got them. The immediate result of publication was the general order to get rid of cellphones on base in iraq. Some liberals took this as admission of guilt. But it wasn't. Imagine you're the guy who gave that order. You haven't paid a lot of attention to the Taguba report because it isn't your responsibility. But then there's a media scandal and you find out that any private with a cellphone can send whatever he wants to the media or to anybody else, including photos of classified documents, leaving no record that he did it. Of course you should have thought of that, but it hadn't been a problem before. You aren't going to interfere in the Abu Ghraib investigation -- it will go at its own speed and there's no good excuse to poke at it. But stopping the ridiculously-easy espionage? No-brainer.

So, scandal. Was there an israeli translator/interrogator among the Titan contract employees? Various people said there was. How would that look to the public? Israeli torture expert "helping out" the americans? Israeli government getting reports? Lots of people would believe the worst. And we did have some sort of cooperation going with the israeli government, and the details have stayed mostly secret. If there was an israeli on the team he disappeared. Some dim bulb in the media decided that contractor "John Israel" might be his AKA, but after they looked for John Israel eventually an american John Israel showed up who could have been the right one. I figure there probably was an israeli on the team, and it got covered up because of the uproar it would cause. And he might easily have been just a garden-variety translator who happened to be israeli.

Karpinski wasn't a great general. Despite her failings she might have been allowed to retire with general's rank except she got caught up in this scandal. Why wasn't there an investigation of the intelligence guys who were a lot closer involved in the scandal than she was? Because Rumsfeld etc don't want the policy examined. They want a scapegoat. Meanwhile Karpinski has had plenty of time to pay attention to the various rumors etc that she was too depressed to notice when she was on duty.

If I asked an Arab if he was an Arab, what are the chances he'd think I was so incredibly stupid (particularly since I'm a girl) that he'd answer "I'm an Israeli."

If I was an Israeli in Iraq secretly what are the chances that, when asked if I were Arab I'd say anything other than "yes"?

Even to a BG?

Thomas, it's good to try to be fair but from the POV of someone who depends on their command, it's just not "Okay" to fail your people like that and it's even less okay to refuse to take responsibility.

And if she'd done that most people would be saying "darn, what bad luck for her, life in the military can be so unfair." But instead she claims that her ignorance, rather than condemning her, actually excuses her. People depended on her because they had no choice given them. If defending them isn't more important to her than defending herself, she deserves far more than scorn.

And she didn't try to solve the "night-time latrine trips" problem... I don't think she had any knowledge of that, either. So I guess that's not her problem either. Like nothing was her problem. I guess it's okay for a BG to be completely incompetent. The harm done to women in the service by Karpinski is incredible... far far more harm than mythical "death by dehydration." (There haven't been that many female soldiers who have died and we know how they died.) Praise God for Sgt Hester and other Soldiers who provide a model for female servicemembers that doesn't include pouting and stomping one's foot.

She wasn't ignorant of what was going on. Her story, as I understand it, is that everything was hunky dory until the bad guys came over from Gitmo and began abusing everybody:

COL. JANIS KARPINSKI: . . . General Miller said -- his first observation was that they were not -- they were being too nice to them. They were not being aggressive enough. And he used the example at Guantanamo Bay that the prisoners there, when they're brought in, that they're handled by two military policemen. They're escorted everywhere they go -- belly chains, leg irons, hand irons -- and he said, “You have to treat them like dogs.”

AMY GOODMAN: You were there when he said this?

COL. JANIS KARPINSKI: Yes, I was there when he said that. And he said, “They have to know that you are in charge, and if you treat them too nicely, they won't cooperate with you. And at Guantanamo Bay, they earn -- the prisoners earn every single thing they get, to include a change of color of their jumpsuits. When they get there, they're issued a bright orange jumpsuit. They're handled in a very aggressive, forceful manner, and they earn the privilege of transitioning to a white jumpsuit, if they prove themselves to be cooperative.”

And I raised my hand. I was just there as a guest. I was not a participant, but I said, “You know, sir, the M.P.s here don't move prisoners with leg irons and hand irons. We don't even have that equipment. We don't have enough funding to buy one jumpsuit per prisoner, let alone an exchange of colors.” And he said, “It's no problem. My budget is $125 million a year at Gitmo, and I'm going to give Colonel Pappas all of the resources he needs to do this appropriately.”

Democracy Now Interview

Her response to the plan to treat them like dogs is to complain that they didn't have the equipment. She knew what was happening or about to happen, but hid behind the bureaucratic line between military intelligence and military police.

She could have and should have protected her men and women.

AL - excellent post. I like the fact that you aren't jumping to any conclusions.

"But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence..."

You're quite right, as hard as that is to accept when you really want to believe something one way or the other.

I don't like her story and the fact that Blackfive considers her a disgrace to her uniform, weighs heavily against her. Once a person starts to lie to protect themselves, they will go to any length to keep the lie going. Even to convincing themselves that the lie is the truth.

The fact that she wants to lay all the blame elsewhere and take none of it on herself is a huge red flag - just calling me to believe that everything she says is twisted. How did this woman ever get to the rank of BG? It's amazing because she can't have become this incompetent over night.

My BS meter went off scale when I found out that Granier (sp) and Frederick were currently, or had been, employed as corrections officers in civilian life. They, based on their civilian employment history, without any additional or special training, should know to kick such orders up the chain of command. And then if the orders still stood, get them in writing.
See Wikipedia (or Google name & correction officer if you don’t trust the W)
Not sure on proper spelling of Granier.
Graner
Frederick

I wish you could follow up on the female soldiers dying from lack of fluids. Also on the death records of those in US custody -- I'd guess there's a site.

The records for the time in question don't support the claims. IMO that leads to one of two conclusions: either the claims are false or there's an extremely broad conspiracy from which no one has defected yet.

#3 The officers and senior NCO's assigned above Granier and the rest deserved stiff punishments as well.

27 officers/NCOs were punished, on top of the enlisted troops court-martialed. They're just now starting the first of the officer courtmartials. I've been trying to keep tabs on who's gotten what punishment but it's not well publicized.

She rather specifically claimed she saw "dehydration" as cause of death on a certificate.

Details here. This really should establish credibility, or lack thereof.

"My BS meter went off scale when I found out that Granier (sp) and Frederick were currently, or had been, employed as corrections officers in civilian life."

That is the key to the whole thing: they saw nothing wrong with treating Iraqis like they treated normal civilian prisoners in prisons back in the US.

The really ugly way this can blow back is when, and I say when and not if, the ACLU convinces one of the clowns of the 9th Circus that guard-on-prisoner and prisoner-on-prisoner violence makes imprisonment Cruel and Unusual, so all 160,000 of them has to be set free...

Ursus Maritimus

If it is such a key to Karpinski's character that she take responsibility for what went on under her commend, why does that responsibility stop with her? Why aren't her commanding officers, up to and including Rumsfeld, also required to take responsibility? They seem to have been quite successful at using the "I didn't know what was going on" excuse.

I don't agree with the conculsion that Karpinski didn't know what was going on.

Chris, do you think Karpinski didn't know what was going on?

I share Blackfive’s opinion of Karpinski and how she dealt with what was surely a bad situation made worse by extreme failures of leadership. (Hers, among others.)

I remember well when news of AG broke, and to say reports infuriated me would be grand understatement. Granier, England and the rest of their bestial cohorts did more to undermine possible International support for our liberation of Iraq than any other single set of behaviors. We can argue all day long about what AG signifies and what it doesn’t, but the fact remains.

If our enemies wanted to create the most salacious, repugnant, and hate-inspiring propaganda against US forces, they could never have done better than the miscreants at Abu Ghraib.

( More here. )

In case anyone overlooked the tag, Dadmanly has a good piece up which includes some of his own "reporting" from Iraq.

The whole issue of the dehydration thing is absolutely ridiculous and implies a level of stupidity on the part of female soldiers that is absolutely insulting. I used to be in the military and have spent some limited time in exercises, etc in tent-living situations. Even supposing that everything she says is true about women being preyed on and not being able to visit the latrine in the dark, it makes no sense that those women would then lie in the their beds dying of dehydration and not do anything about it! They could get a bottle of water during the day and take a few sips out of it at night if they wake up parched, for goodness sakes. Most folks there also have other people living in their tents/boxes who they could tap on the shoulder and say...I'm really thirsty have you got any water? Or at least - I don't feel good, take me to the medics where they could be given an IV! People just don't die of dehydration in an instant. It just doesn't pass the common sense test. If someone died of dehydration it would likely happen while on a mission or just after returning from a day in the incredibly heat and strenuous environment. Why Karpinski is harping on this I don't know, expect perhaps to bolster an impression she is trying to make that the military leadership doesn't like women.
As to the issue of Abu Ghraib, there are fair arguments to made that other leadership figures should have been or should still be (and I think there are still more prosecutions coming) held responsible. But all the reports, like the one cited, coming out of the investigations of Abu Ghraib indicate a prison where military discipline was severely degraded, where oversight was minimal, and where training was severely lacking...All of these issues ultimately go back to the person in charge: Karpinski and the kind of environment created was such that a creep like Graner (sp) could get away with his disgusting sadistic actions and influence others around him. Karpinski deserved everything she got - as a former female officer I am disgusted both by her lack of accountability and by her attempts now to spread rumors and lies that unfairly paint the rest of the military that was her bread and butter for so many years in a bad light. She is not a good leader, she was not a good manager, and now she proves that she is also not an individual of any integrity.

First of all, the wikepedia link is full of errors, so for someone to quote that link is lazy and stupid....

General K. changes her story like the weather changes except for one thing, she is always the innocent victim.

For those of you arm-chair qb's who dont know a thing about being in a war-zone and following orders,the rules changed after 9/11 on how to deal with detainees according as per the admin., not the ever-growing list of rogue soldiers from AG. These things were approved first at G-Bay and brought to AG ala Gen. Miller and now that trail is stuck in classified land.

Gen. K said that the detainees were originally innocent. May have been true, but not in Nov-Jan. AG was the reason for Saddam's capture. AG had high value detainees, Al-Qaeda, etc.. Once again, she is talking when she doesnt know what she is talking about.

And for those quoting the Taguba report, that is the Army's investigation of itself to make this a rogue soldier problem. Ask your self in the 15-6 of G-Bay, why did Gen. Schmidt not investigate the migration of tactics to AG, in the report he said he could have easily, but that wasnt his lane. Why the f not?? B/c there has never been one single general officer go to prison and the good ol' boy system will not start today.
i found the counseling statement of Graner here(shows his company commander and MI colonel knew and approved, and gasp, at his trial they invoked their article 31 rights)
www.supportmpscapegoats.com/files/16_nov_counseling_statement.pdf

Look. This is a no-brainer.

Somebody is responsible for all operations at that faciliy. For something like that, it's probably an O-5 or O-6

That's as high as repsonsibility goes. Above that, you are talking malfeasance of strategic issues, not what some E-2 took pictures of somewhere.

The General should have lost her star for what happened if it happened on her watch. It doesn't matter about the stories of mysterious visitors -- she's still responsible. That's what that star means.

As far as her recent behavior, she should be stripped of all rank and court-martialed for refusing to respect the oath she took. Ducking responsibility and slinging mud to deride the armed forces after your separation are the most severe violation of your oath that you can imagine. That's worse than the thing she was guilty of. I'm in favor of no rank, no retirement, no nothing. She can take her bad attitude to McDonalds and see how far disloyalty takes her in the corporate world.

Having said that, she was probably an unqualified person put in a position with conflicting loyalties that was beyond her capability to deal with. Tough luck. But that doesn't change the responsibilities involved. Life's tough, kid. Somebody should have told her that when she got one of those promotions.

You can make lots of arguements about Abu Ghraib, but once she started spouting these crazy dehydration stories....she jumped the shark. Now it doesn't matter who did what. Karpinski has lost all credibility. Civilians can wonder about chain of command and think about X-Files like conspiracies. But everyone knows that if you stop drinking fluids you can not just die a peaceful death in 12 hours. Please!!! As a result, even if she had anything to add..........it's too late, she has lost all credibility. There is nothing she can say that I want to hear.

#5 from Synova on May 16, 2006 04:27 PM

If I asked an Arab if he was an Arab, what are the chances he'd think I was so incredibly stupid (particularly since I'm a girl) that he'd answer "I'm an Israeli."

f I was an Israeli in Iraq secretly what are the chances that, when asked if I were Arab I'd say anything other than "yes"?

Even to a BG?

The chances are zero in seven billion.

Karpinski, and people like her, are a direct result of a promotion system that promotes individuals for traits such as race or gender, regardless of, and at the expense of performance.

By the way, paragraph 33 of the IG report is classified SECRET/NOFORN. Unless it's been declassified, you really should remove it. If it has been declass'ed, redact the S/NF header.

On the subject of Karpinski's rank, isn't it obvious that a general who is busted down to a colonel for disciplinary reasons is no longer entitled to be called "general"?

If I was an Israeli in Iraq secretly what are the chances that, when asked if I were Arab I'd say anything other than "yes"?

80%?

Israelis on US bases in iraq could expect vastly better treatment than arabs. Israelis wouldn't nearly so likely be considered security threats.

Say it's an israeli who just happens to be working for a US military contractor, who isn't particularly secret at all. Then 95%. Why would he lie?

Having said that, she was probably an unqualified person put in a position with conflicting loyalties that was beyond her capability to deal with. Tough luck.

Agreed. In th very best case I can imagine, where her superiors didn't allow her to make the changes needed (and didn't allow her to get the supplies needed), she had a responsibility to resign rather than preside over the failure of her command.

Since she didn't resign, it was the responsibility of her superior officer to notice her failure and deal with it. This eventually happened. Did it happen soon enough? I'm not in a position to judge that. I don't know any of the relevant details. The Taguba report covers various problems that she didn't deal with. It doesn't say anything about the next level up from her. Maybe for all her faults there was no one available who looked like they'd do better.

She should lose all rank and be discharged at the very least. Prison time for neglect of the Soldiers in her charge should have been given. If she didn't know--she should have. She is a disgrace to all of our brave Soldiers, both male and female. Especially female! I seriously doubt that female Soldiers couldn't figure out that they had to have water and how to safely take care of bathroom needs. Get real. Have you ever been to a dance, etc. and seen a lone woman go to the bathroom???? For the most part, even in safe environments, we go potty in groups!!

If you can't run with the big dawgs, stay on the porch. She must have come up in rank as a "token female". I hope that there aren't more like her.
Desi - a proud Army mom