Breaking: The US State Department has announced that Israel has agreed to a temporary suspension of aerial bombing in Lebanon. No word whether Hezbollah will respond in kind. Developing ...
Mark Perry:There is little question that, eighteen days after Israel's ferocious military response to the abduction of two of its soldiers ... the IDF has yet to show that it is capable of decisively defeating Hezbollah in open battle or significantly degrading Hezbollah's military capacity. As a result, IDF senior officers have stridently argued that Hezbollah infrastructure strong points and marshalling stations not yet included in IAF strike packages because of their proximity to civilian concentrations be "put on the table." ...
Olmert and his defense minister hesitantly gave permission to expand the target list on Friday afternoon, I have been told. Included on the target list were Hezbollah command and control centers in Tyre and in the string of towns south and east of that city. Striking these sites, it was thought, would have a decisive political -- and not just military -- impact, by degrading Hezbollah's missile capacity. Significantly bringing down the actual numbers of rockets launched against Israel would allow the U.S. and Israel to declare that the current operation was a success, thereby establishing the ground from which the U.S. could argue that the "terrorist threat" from Lebanon had been defeated. Bringing down the number of rocket strikes on Israel would also allow the IDF to claim a victory in its campaign -- an absolute necessity given the current Israeli political environment.
Reports from the ground in Lebanon confirm that the IAF has expanded its target envelope, hitting sites that were considered off limits just 48 hours previously. Unfortunately, as nearly every military expert knows, precision weapons are not that precise -- and a miscue of even ten meters can make a huge difference. This is what happened at Qana. Nor, it seems, do IDF officers take seriously the more graphic defense of IAF targeting, as justified because Hezbollah uses human shields. Israel also co-locates many of its basing operations in cities and amongst the civilian population -- simply because of the ease of logistics operations that such co-locations necessitate. "The human shield argument just doesn't wash and we know it," an IDF commander says. "We don't expect Hezbollah to deploy in the open with a sign that says 'here we are.'"
The treaties and customs of war distinguish, however, between intentionally targeting noncombatants, as Hezbollah is doing with its rockets, and targeting military targets in civilian areas. For all the scorn the Left likes to heap upon the concept of collateral damage, the treaties of war take it seriously.
The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons. Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon.
A hard fact of the laws of war is that the presence of noncombatants near or even right next to legitimate targets does not place the targets off limits. Would the so-called international community be screaming as loud if a Hezbollah rocket destroyed a Haifa apartment building, killing 50 Israeli civilians? I don't think so.
Readers of my posts on the Hezbollah war, either posted here or at DonaldSensing.com, know that I have been critical of Israel's operations, chiefly because I do not think they will actually result in achieving Israel's strategic goals. As I have posted, this war began with miscalculations all around, but I have been equally clear that Israel's military response is justified to Hezbollah's July 12 cross-border raid. Hezbollah has never shown the slightest interest in giving up its goal of destroying Israel. That Israel should destroy Hezbollah I simply take as a given. But not only must Hezbollah lose, it must be seen to lose. Hezbollah is not obviously losing. Regardless of whether Hezbollah is being significantly degraded in fact, Israel is losing the vital information-war part of the campaign: its tactics appear, justifiably or not, as both brutal and ineffective to the people whom Israel cannot afford to alienate: the average Lebanese.
Israel has said repeatedly that it wants the Lebanese government and Lebanese national army to exercise control over Hezbollah and assume territorial control over southern Lebanon. Even if that were to come about, Israel's over-reliance on aerial bombing runs a high risk of making the Lebanese army and future government just as inimical to Israel as Hezbollah is now. In fact, it will be no surprise if the next Lebanese government is actually a Hezbollah government, and the future national army a Hezbollah-dominated army.
Endnote: For some reason, some commenters have taken my criticism of Israel's methods as supporting Hezbollah. I generally never respond to comments, and don't intend to start, but those of you who engage in such binary thinking, your comments frankly show all the depth of a bumper sticker. Yeah, the world loves the double standard against Israel and Hezbollah can get away with war crimes that the UN would try to crucify Israel for. Whah! Whah! Whah! Get a grip: that's the world Israel lives in and a fact it must deal with and exactly the reason it said it would suspend the air campaign for now.
I'd love Perry to explain what I see as a paradox. As civilian casualties increase international and domestic pressure for Israel to agree to a cease fire also increases. Given this axiom what possible motivation does Hizb'allah have to fight according to laws of war? Further, what possible motivation does Hizb'allah have to minimize harm to its fellow citizens? Or, if you prefer, what possible motivation does Hizb'allah have to not maximize harm to its fellow citizens?
It's a simple logic puzzle. There's no need for anecdotes.
Thanks.
Mark Perry. Sniff.
“we’ve got to talk to the terrorists”
He smells a little funny to me. I don’t trust him – took to time to watch him on C-Span also.
I think the current attempt to reduce Hezbollah and bring Lebanon fully into the Western or EU camp is so important that we can’t allow stupid errors like Qana to stop it. It would be better if the Israeli’s left the rocket launchers alone, have their civilian that are in range hunker down, and concentrate on fixing and closing with Hezbollah on the ground. My fervent hope is that they stop hitting towns and civilians and instead hurt Hezbollah enough that the Lebanese can evict or marginalize them.
This may be a foolish hope. I can’t read through the drama queen rhetoric to know whether or not irreparable damage has been done to future Israeli Lebanese relations. I may also be a fool for believing that that a critical mass of Lebanese are ready to move on past the self-destructive Arab mentality of alternating victim hood and implacable rage at the existence of Israel.
If Hizbollah used civilians as human shields they would lose their overwhelming popular support.
A brief look at the caualty figures on both sides of the border will reveal just who is targeting civilians.
People who can casually point the finger of blame at the dead innocents, in my view, are no longer worthy of consideration as rational human beings.
Is it your premise that Hizballah does not use populated areas as a base of operations?
I hope so since that would indicate a drop in the popularity of HAMAS. Assuming of course that Palestinians are humans like the Lebanese.
Ahh, a humanist at heart. How quaint.
Who did? Justaguy, I know you care very, very, very deeply. Emotion is, afterall, the last resort of the scoundrel. Or something like that.
But just in case anyone wants to follow the same tack as Justaguy I'll add another question that follows from my premise in #1 and another that seems popular. I'll restate to avoid confusion.
If it is true that as civilian casualties increase international and domestic pressure for Israel to agree to a cease fire also increases. And that a early cease fire equates to a victory for Hizb'allah. Then what motivation does Israel have to intentionally target civilians?
Put on those thinking caps.
justaguy (#3)
In any normal, civilized world, what I'm about to say would sound silly. Sadly, we don't live in one of those.
Your premise that Hiz would lose support if they used civilians as human shields has an unspoken assumption: that the civilians do not wish to be used as shields. In a jihad/martyr ideology, that assertion is no longer true. Therefore your arugument does not hold. It also applies western valus to a non-western civilization.
Now that M Simon has cracked the uber-secure Turing Test at WOC (and used on my own blog), will safety ever return to the world??
Well fontinus, from your response i can see I'm not going to get a serious response from you, so I'll just go with this.
The next 11/9 will garner very little sympathy amongst the great bulk of the world's population, as opposed to the last. A lot of people, even amongst the 'humanists' (sic), will get some grim satisfaction that at least some chickenhawks like you won't be around to spew forth their hatred anymore.
Awww, puh wittle justatard comes back with more emotion. Idn't dat precious. Coochi coo.
You got a serious response. You just didn't like it.
Daniel Markham, clearly you haven't been to the Lebanon, it is a far more westernized country than Israel is in almost all respects.
Have you ever been amongst Israeli settlers? If you had you would be less likely to speculate on the arab psychology I suspect.
Coochi coo
The call of the chickenhawk?
justaguy (#8) Thanks for playing the home game, but if you're going to come on here with a bunch of emotional claptrap and little reasoning, and then fall back to your "you americans are poorly-traveled, dumb, and biased" routine -- I already saw that show. As I recall, it ended poorly for you.
If anything, my speculation is a compliment to a culture that is different from mine. Some, like the Japanese, have a long, honorable war-like tradition. Fundamentalist Islam certainly does. Time and time again it has been demonstrated that the men, women, and children are ready to die. The women even seem to take great pride in heaving their teenage children into the abyss.
Applying western values to other cultures is very eurocentric. I'd think you wouldn't fall into that trap. And BTW, frontinus asked you some serious questions that you refused to answer. Do you have a reasoned answer? If so, I'd like to hear it. (Seems like I've said this before to you)
No, it's an audible cue used to elicit a response from babies. Apparently it works online with text as well. Who knew?
Really? The other one ended when you ran away I thought. Frontinus asked nothing serious. All puppy fat I'd say.
So, why don't we cut the crap and you answer the question that you shied away from last time. Where does it end? You can't invade Syria and Iran, so what are you achieving in all this (apart from negatives)?
Hey justaguy (#12). Ask away. I'm not running anywhere.
Aside from dissing frontius (doesn't help your argument much) you want to know where does it end?
Where does WHAT end? The current Israeli action? The middle east? The world? WTF are you talking about?
Israel, imo, is currently rattling cans in Lebanon. Lebanon can get with the program and disarm their political parties (gee -- is that so radical?) and stop having their citizens launch missiles at the neighbors and kidnap them, or not. Whatever happens, something will happen. The ball will move, to use a sports metaphor.
Do you have a more specific question? Would you care to answer frontinus? Or are you too good for all of that reasonable, logical, and thoughtful claptrap? I'm sure he's probably not traveled that much either. Maybe we can all pitch in for some plane tickets for him so that he'll get smarter. (apologies frontinus)
Where does it end? It ends when the whole world is Moslem or enslaved to Moslems, or it ends when the jihadis give up on their fantasies of world domination. Everything short of those potential endpoints is just commentary.
"Nor, it seems, do IDF officers take seriously the more graphic defense of IAF targeting, as justified because Hezbollah uses human shields. Israel also co-locates many of its basing operations in cities and amongst the civilian population -- simply because of the ease of logistics operations that such co-locations necessitate. "The human shield argument just doesn't wash and we know it," an IDF commander says. "We don't expect Hezbollah to deploy in the open with a sign that says 'here we are.'"
No one is blaming Lebanon for locating telephone networks and bridges in urban locations. The criticism is mostly focused on Hezbullah launching missles from residential areas, storing missiles and launchers in civilian homes, even arriving in a Christian town, and launching missiles from residential areas in order to bring Israel bombs into that area to turn that ethinc group against Israel.
In Gulf War I there was a lot of hubbub about US air power going after Iraqi missile launchers. These launchers were not shooting from inbetween apartment buildings in Bagdhad. Saddam Hussein was no Saint, so if the Iraqi army didn't require urban facilities for their missile launchers why does Hezbullah?
If true, this is defnitely a loss for Israel and us but, more importantly, it means that the next war will be waged with WMD. At least 90% of the casualties from those will be Muslim, and 90% those will be Arabs not residing in Israel.
Where does it end? It ends when the whole world is Moslem or enslaved to Moslems, or it ends when the jihadis give up on their fantasies of world domination. Everything short of those potential endpoints is just commentary.
Oh yeah, The muslims are coming, the muslims are coming! Your fear of a few goat herders is ridiculous.
Hizbollah is a Shiite LEBANESE resistance force who had joined the mainstream political process. They have no global ambitions.
Daniel
If Lebanon is being destroyed right now because they didn't (or patently couldn't) immediately implement the UN resolution, where does that leave Israel after having 39 years to implement theirs. Do they deserve destruction too?
justaguy (#17) condoning action and saying a country should be devastated are two different things. I don't know, nor do I care, what "should" happen to any country. I know that you can't have a neighbor launching rockets and kidnapping your soliders, killing your civilians (remember the bus incident recently?) while you say there is no state of war. If your citizens are engaged in such activity, in my opinion, you ARE at war, either with the other country or with your own citizens. Perhaps it's more nuanced than that, but beats me how it could be.
I might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer (I only have 400-500K miles on my frequent flier account) but if the local Ruritan club started pulling up in Toyota trucks with missiles on the back and shooting them into Mexico, I think I could spot some trouble coming. If the Mexicans said something like "run away!" you can be double-durn sure I would be walking somewhere, anywhere, and fast. And if I had a vote? I'd be voting to use whatever force available to get rid of those fiesty Ruritans! Including asking the Mexicans to invade, the US to bomb them -- whatever.
Now if I supported their actions, and if I were fatalistically inclined, I'd be on TV, moaning about innocent civilians, storming the UN, whining about the laws of modern warfare. I would be playing the media war.
Welcome to the Media War I, guys.
Daniel, that argument cuts both ways. How many Lebanese and Palestinians have been abducted by the Israelis? The Israels started shelling Gaza weeks after they withdrew and shelled Lebanon BEFORE Hizbollah fired their Katyushas.
Israel wants their cake and eat it too. They demand that Lebanon disarm Hizbollah (even though they can't) but they refuse to leave Sheba Farms, the Golan and the occupied territories.
Now, they are clearly practising ethnic cleansing in South Lebanon. They won't get rid of Hizbollah, you can't possibly occupy Iran, so why not a ceasefire now if the idea isn't to terrorize and brutalize another arab people (again).
Qana of all places!
(long rant about "The Israelis are bad too!") "if the idea isn't to terrorize and brutalize another arab people (again). "
Perhaps you missed the part about being in a de facto state of war. As far as I'm concerned, if Israel was the horoor you make it out to be, why isn't it fire-bombing Lebanese cities? Using WMD? Setting up internment camps?
Lebanon must control it's political parties and armed incursions across the border if it wants to protect its citizens. What part of that statement has anything to do with the middle east or the current situation? It is true for any country, anywhere.
The Israelis seem very amenable to trade land for peace (at least until they got kicked in the teeth these last two times), they trade prisoners, and they don't send teenage girls onto Palis buses loaded with buckshot and C-4.
You seem very angry, justaguy. Now I have a question for you.
frontinus pointed out to you that it is not in the Israelis best interest to cause civilian casualties, while it is in Hezbollah's interest. To me, that seems rather obvious. If it is in Hezbollah's interest to kill (or voluntarily sacrifice) their own members, what is a civilized response from the other party? And no, getting into who is right and wrong is not allowed. Let's assume they have a just cause. How, morally, should the other party act? Just sit around and wait to get killed? Remember that Hez, which is basically an advanced terrorist group, is using some big honking missiles. Should they just wait until the missiles get really big? How big? Wait for a chemical attack? Seriously. No pie-in-the-sky-lets-all-be-friends crap. What do you do?
This should not be too difficult. Show us the gun camera footage from the bombers that dropped the precision munitions on Qana and the UN Outpost.
The footage should clearly show the presence of the rocket launchers.
My assessment is that since such footage - which would prove the Israeli case beyond a shadow of a doubt would be a PR coup - has not been released does not exist...
... or the IDF does not want to show the footage since it would be bad for the IDF.
See this
The "hiding among civilians" myth
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/28/hezbollah/index_np.html
Israel claims it's justified in bombing civilians because Hezbollah mingles with them. In fact, the militant group doesn't trust its civilians and stays as far away from them as possible.
Now if I supported their actions, and if I were fatalistically inclined, I'd be on TV, moaning about innocent civilians, storming the UN, whining about the laws of modern warfare. I would be playing the media war.
By this, you appear to be suggesting that arabs are incapable of human emotion, and that ALL actions are designed to win a propaganda war in the living rooms of America?
They're not doing a very good job, because the pictures don't get shown in America. Too gruesome and no Israeli tears to tug the heartstrings Israel's way.
I'd suggest that the statement says more about you than you'd be honest enough to actually type. And, certainly more than it says about the Lebanese.
Good on the Lebanese PM for telling Condi to go f... herself today too.
' Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths -- the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far -- on "terrorists" who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.
But this claim is almost always false. My own reporting and that of other journalists reveals that in fact Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.
For their part, the Israelis seem to think that if they keep pounding civilians, they'll get some fighters, too. '
I seem angry? Jeeez, what could my problem be?
In answer to your question. I would accept the fact that other countries/peoples also have a right to defend their territory and people and stick to a plan to acheive a just solution, which was the plan that was in place and was proceeding in Lebanon.
What would be really unfair and inhuman would be to destroy a country's economy and infrastructure because I didn't think they were moving quickly enough to implement a UN resolution that was a) impossible for my neighbour to implement immediately and b) whilst I was in breach of a number of older and more important resolutions.
Otherwise I would be a hypocrite.
Furthermore I might make a serious attempt to resolve in good faith the longest festering sore in negotiating a just solution with the people that I'd stolen my territory from.
The Israelis got kicked in the teeth. Now you're having a laugh. Tell me how much of the West Bank did they annexe while they were pulling their poxy Gaza settlements out?
How many settlers did they put into the West Bank after Oslo?
You're a fool.
Ok. I have to go for a while, but I'll play along with one more post this evening.
(show us the gun camera footage) "The footage should clearly show the presence of the rocket launchers. "
LOL. And why, exactly, would that be true? Because the target is identified at the same time the missile is launched? Come on, you're not that stupid. Targeting and striking are separate actions. Targeting could occur 2 minutes or 2 days before striking. I certainly hope you are being misleading by accident and not on purpose.
"By this, you appear to be suggesting that arabs are incapable of human emotion, and that ALL actions are designed to win a propaganda war in the living rooms of America?" -- OMG. I am? Hey! When did I do that?
I am suggesting that the only way you fight a completely superior enemy like the Israelis is through the media. That's it. I'm not demonizing or dehumanizing anybody. That's the only way to fight the war they seem to want. It is, in fact, similar to the way I'd fight it, except I'd be a lot more moral about it than dressing up in Israeli army uniforms and machine-gunning a bus. Or blanket rocketing Israeli cities with AP weapons.
"Good on the Lebanese PM for telling Condi to go f... herself today too." Yes. Good for them. They need to stand up for something. If it is war with Israel and telling the US to go jump in a lake, let them stand up like men and say so. If it is "immediate cease fire" and go back to like it was last month then a little more honesty and less bravado is called for.
BottomFeeder -- you make claims without substantiating them. Your reporting? Surely you know that reporting depends on sourcing. So where are your independent sources that say Hezbollah is NOT hiding in the population? I'd like to see that please. I've read several reports that dispute your writing.
And, Daniel, you neatly sidestepped the destruction of Lebanon question. Do you think that the destruction of an entire country is a moral or proportionate response to the military operation against military personnel by Hizbollah?
A yes or no answer would suffice. Thanks.
"You're a fool."
LOL. Well that's it for me for tonight. Thank you for playing justaguy! As you know, the first person to resort to name-calling has lost all hope and the argument as well.
You still seem very angry. Might want to take some kind of emotional management class, double up on the yoga or something. The thing about the middle east is that you can come back in ten years and its all the same guys, with all the same arguments, doing all the same things. If you can't separate the story and the emotions from the facts and the principles, I'd think you're going to be angry a lot.
And no, your answer did not wash.
"The next 11/9 will garner very little sympathy amongst the great bulk of the world's population, as opposed to the last. "
Ridiculous. And revealing. Ridiculous since almost all of the world celebrated 9/11 constantly, the American Ambassador was in tears that day as BBC call-in listeners celebrated the deaths of over 3,000 Americans. Ridiculous too since nearly all Americans could care less if the world loved or hated them or just didn't care. Most Americans simply want no further repeat of 9/11. 9/11 will be deterred when people are afraid to repeat it out of fear; having people "love us" is a stupid, and infantile strategy of a person incapable of rational thought.
Revealing in that it shows the most desired outcome of the poster is to have the world's "sympathy." For "the world to feel sorry for us." Comics writer Art Spiegelman said as much, that the Bush Administration "squandered the world's sympathy and failed to understand why they hate us." Speaks to a deep psychological need to be "loved" instead anything approaching rationality.
We all know WHY Muslims hate America, Jews, and Israel. It's not just that their religion is violent, hateful, and has as it's highest religious duty the slaughter of the infidel. It's also that it is opposed to modernity and all it's attributes; and sees (rightly) Jews and Americans as the chief engines of Modernity. That Modernity makes losers out of Muslims (quick name one world class company from a Muslim Nation) has not escaped their notice either.
The original post suffers this same lack of clear thinking. Lebanese hated Israel, wanted them all slaughtered, and tolerated Hezbollah because ... Hezbollah IS Lebanon. The Shia Dark Ages theocratic frenzied fanatics make up the vast majority of Lebanon's population, and like Shia world-wide want nothing but to "wipe out all Jews everywhere." In the words of Nasrallah. They enthusiastically endorse the "martyrdom" of civilians and basing weapons in apartment houses, villages, etc. Lebanon is not the few Christians who delude themselves that the Shia won't slaughter them shortly; it's the Party of God who make up about 80% of Lebanon's population and find the Middle Ages too liberal and confusing.
The big danger for Israel is the Party of God using Iranian supplied short-range missiles armed with either VX or nukes. Guidance is accurate enough for such weapons to hit Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa, and other Israeli cities and wipe out most Israelis in one strike. Completing Hitler's Final Solution as Muslims, Europeans, and Leftists, have dreamed for years.
Nothing Israel has done will address that threat; unless it uses siege warfare and simply kills everyone in Southern Lebanon that remains; forces everyone out of Southern Lebanon by destroying water, power, roads, electricity and rendering the area unfit for human habitation. Short Range missiles are unstoppable, by the time they appear on radar they are on target, and are easily concealed.
Don't think this is Israel's problem only. Morocco in a coup, or Libya, or even Narco-Gangs in Mexico could rain a few nuclear or VX tipped short range rockets on say, cities in Sicily, southern Spain, or El Paso or San Diego. Making "demands" of territorial concession (Sicily to Libya, or all of al-Andulus to Muslims in Morocco or Algeria, or the Southwest to Mexico). Or perhaps simply money. Or release of criminals and terrorists. If Hezbollah can use rockets so can anyone else with a beef with the First World. Leading inevitably to the West losing all restraint and acting according to an existential threat.
Justaguy is delusional. Hezbollah, Nasrallah, Ahmadinejad, Zawahari, and Bin Laden have all stated their goals as have Muslims world-wide: a. Slaughter of all the Jews everywhere (see Seattle, Muslims in America constantly slaughter the infidel); and imposition of a world-wide Caliphate. Their only difference is who will run the world as "God's Shadow on Earth." This is Mohammed's Message.
9/11 is the decisive proof that Justaguy is delusional. Like Chamberlain who said he could bargain with "Mr. Hitler."
For the record, one of the "abducted" Palestinians that Justaguy weeps over (and who's release has been demanded): invaded a Jewish town inside Israel proper. Took a family hostage (the wife was able to hide in the attic with her infant). Took the father and elder daughter hostage. Shot the father and beat the 8 year old girls skull in with a rifle. Struggling to quiet her infant daughter, the wife smothered her to death. Shades of the Shoah.
Muslims have made by deed and word their objective clear: slaughter of all the Jews wherever they may be found, Seattle, Buenos Aires, or Tel Aviv. Justaguy endorses this because ... he agrees with them. An individual filled with loathing just as Muslims are of all the facets of Modernity, principally among them America and Jews.
Words cannot express my total contempt, disdain, and dislike for those who reject the West in favor of romanticized tribalism.
justaguy (#26)
I'll do you the honor that you did not do me and give you a simple answer. It depends.
I believe that once the truce is violated it is the judgement of the agrreived party as to what is proportionate. It's not your decision or mine. Do you think the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor which took a couple thousand lives warrant two nuclear bombs on Japan? Did the invasion of Poland by Germany deserve in retalliation the fire bombing of German population centers by the allies? Did 9-11 justify Afghanistan or Iraq? If you're so upset about a few hundred Lebanese, you should be incensed at these other examples, right?
Israel had to take out bridges and infrastructure to keep a damper on the supply lines. Unless you wanted a really bigger war. (Do people around here think things through at all?) I'd like to see some strikes on the Syrian missile factories. The ones that the Syrian ambassador says don't exist. Shouldn't be too hard to blow up imaginary factories.
Shebaa Farms, Golan..wow.
The UN already dealt with those lies back in May 2000 the first time Syria floated them. It isn't surprising you parrot them, justatard.
Well, if the deliberate targeting of civilians by the regional superpower in the middle east doesn't anger you, then I'd suggest that you have already lost.
You are so sure of your righteousness that you can't recognize wrongdoing by your pals, but you don't even know why they're your pals anyway.
Your friend frontywhatever was the first to introduce insult to the thread.
And yes, I'm angry. I'm angry at Israel and I'm angry at you dumbarses in the US that put these idiot neocons in power that are making this all possible. And I'm even more angry that northing will change when they're gone because AIPAC owns the Democrats too.
Are you even Americans anymore?
Or it's secret and winding its way through bureaucratic minutiae. No, no, that can't be it. Now I understand why 17 days makes people so frantic--1 day is too damnd long.
Yes, don't want those civilians to see the uniforms or anything. How stupid does this Prothroe think his readers are? Or I guess the better question is how stupid does he think Hizballah is? Surely they can police their own and terrorize everyone else. Nah, not possible. Nope. They live in cloisters dontchaknow.
Are we even Americans anymore?
LOL. What, pray tell, would you want us to do? Hezbollah cut its teeth by killing US Marines on a peacekeeping mission in Lebanon. You want me to cry a river over those murderous bastards? Not happening.
And Lebanon? I would do whatever I could to support the peaceful Lebanese people. Can you please show these people to me? The ones who are disarmed and don't have crazy terrorists living with them? Everybody wants a peaceful Lebanon with secure borders and happy, free people. So how can we have that with this kind of activity going on?
As far as the "deliberate targeting of civilians by the regional superpower" -- Bwahahahaha.
Okay. I'll say this slowly so you can understand. Israel usually (but not always) hits what it is aiming for. Sometimes it aims at identified military targets inside a hospital or church or whatever. The rules are clear -- you shoot at me from an orphanage and I'll level the place to the ground. It is YOU, not me, who is guilty of killing those kids. Read up a bit. Might make you less angry.
And I don't know the other guy. I just thought he made some great points which you (as usual) ran away from with some typographical flatulence.
But I really do appreciate the conversation. I want peace in the region. Angry story-tellers are not helping the situation any. Get with the program and support the people you seem to care about -- reason and common sense will beat out "I'm so right and you are so wrong" every time. Israel doesn't want to bomb Lebanon, and the Lebanese certainly don't want to be bombed. So get rid of the crazy armed Hezbollah guys and have a nice, prosperous society. Yes? You can even keep the crazy unarmed Hezbollah guys around.
My own reporting and that of other journalists ...
Ah, so you're above it all then. Me, I'm on Israel's side.
Israel has fought an existential struggle since the day it was founded against implacable enemies who want to destroy it. Iran has been promising that Israel will soon be destroyed, that all it would take would be one nuke, and - I guess it's just a coincidence - Iran, whose tool Hezbollah is, is building a bomb.
Nice to be above it all - and yet from that position take up the verbal cudgel against the Jewish state. I just wish I had the moral status to judge Israel like those of you who are above it all.
How about he denies your idiotic hyperbole? The "entire country" is not being destroyed in spite of the best baiting by Hizballah. And once again...proportionate is not determined by your warped logic of piling corpses on a scale. But you keep acting as though it does. Cry a bit more, randomly capitalize words, and over-punctuate. That way we can gauge just how emotional invested you are. HELP us, Justaguy111!!!
Are you suggesting that Israel has the right to ignore UN resolutions but everyone else has to buckle under even when they aren't immediately possible. Lebanon was complying, Israel never has.
Your "supply line" argument is totally specious. They are targeting civilian infrastructure. A war crime. They are targeting civilians, they are blocking humanitarian relief, they are demanding people leave and making it impossible for them to do so. They've hit hospitals ambulances the Red Cross the UN. They've taken out water plants and sewage plants. They've taken out a dairy farm and factory. They've hit the Lebanese Army when they were demanding they disarm Hizbollah.
Hit Syria? What, for being right about what Israel would do once they left?
Oh why not? Afghanistan, out of control. Iraq, civil war. Lebanon, the only democracy in the ME, destroyed. Palestinians being killed at 20 or 30 a day. Why not add Syria and Iran, eh?
Are you people insane?
If you want more suicide bombers and more 11/9 s, just keep doing what you are doing. Great plan for ...........? Freedom and democracy? Halliburton? Faux News?
A reminder to all parties that you are, or should be, putting together arguments that readers will find insightful, or even correct ... you are vanishingly unlikely to convince the correspondents who are writing in to oppose you that they are wrong and you are right, by golly. Isn't going to happen.
A focus on arguments instead of on online personas is likely to get you closer to the real prize. If some insult sent in your direction strikes you as a real eye-roller, the odds are good that others will see it that way too, without prompting.
It's always appreciated when you provide links to the sources you're using. Readers here click through surprisingly often.
(Hey, my Turing's not 666333!)
If we care any less than Justaguy we've already lost. If we shed 58 tears and he sheds 1 more we've already lost. You are nothing but emotion. And that's why I find you offensive.
Justaguy not only cares more than anyone else but he also reads minds! Truly gifted.
No, you did when you thought I'd wilt in the face of your emotional tantrums.
Here you are in #3 your first post in this thread:
What? Are you used to people feeling shamed into submission?
Justaguy,
Your claims about Israel never complying with UN resolutions is as false as most of your claims. The UN itself has certified that Israel complied with the resolution calling for Israel to withdraw from Lebanon. The same resolution calls for Hezbollah to be disarmed - which it hasn't.
Your silly rhetoric about Israel destroying Lebanon would be rather humorous were it not that you are once again propagandizing on behalf of Hezbollah and its Iranian masters. Lebanon was destroyed by 15 years of civil war between shiite, Syrian proxy PLO and Iranian proxies, and christian forces. Many more Lebanese were killed during that civil war than could even be blamed on Israel by propagandists like yourself.
If the Lebanese do not wish Israel to conduct military operations in their territory, it is their responsibility to remove the forces from that territory that are attacking Israel. Your failure to acknowledge this simple fact renders all of your comments irrelevant.
Israel doesn't want to bomb Lebanon, and the Lebanese certainly don't want to be bombed. So get rid of the crazy armed Hezbollah guys and have a nice, prosperous society. Yes? You can even keep the crazy unarmed Hezbollah guys around.
That was the plan. Don't you see?
I think you are idealizing Israel, they DO want to bomb people. Not all, but a sizeable slice of the population. These settlers are crazy and the Likudists are hawkish insane powermongers that want the whole of the original mandate for biblical reasons. They're dangerous nuts that have you enthralled.
I'd suggest getting a satellite dish and stop watching Fox News.
Yeah I bit front. But I don't mind making the extreme case -- where does proportinate response end? My answer still stands. But the male bovine excrement factor is definitely increasing.
"Hit Syria? What, for being right about what Israel would do once they left? " -- yes. You nailed it. Israel should hit Syria for being right. Not for mucking around in Lebanon, making rockets for firing at Israelis. But for being right. Gee. You catch on fast.
Your targeting rant, quite frankly, was long on details and short on sourcing. Fair enough -- I haven't sourced anything either. But I really can't respond to some random list of yours.
"If you want more suicide bombers and more 11/9 s, just keep doing what you are doing. Great plan for ...........? Freedom and democracy? Halliburton? Faux News?"
You know, maybe it's just me, but I would think that international relations should continue on any way they choose without suicide bombers. In fact, once you start trying to make the terrorists happy, you're falling down a long hole with no bottom. If you don't believe me, ask you buddies the Israeli liberals. They've been playing this game for decades -- let's just give them what they want and they will like us! It hasn't been working too well for them.
So no. We do what we have to do. The governments in the region must control their crazy people. That's the new rule. We're willing to use force to ensure it. So are the Israelis. Any sane, responsive government would feel the same way.
Put another way -- terrorism will continue regardless of neocons, Israelis, whatever your little closet monster-of-the-week is. Each time a couple of guys kill a couple of thousand, democratically elected governments will have to come in and hurt a lot of people, most of them civilian. This is not negotiable -- it is part of the structure of democratic governments. So you can rant all you want about whatever, but either governments control their crazy people, or a lot of innocent people will die. That's just the facts of life, justaguy.
Yes, yes...Shebaa Farms. We know you favor Syria's word over the United Nations. Way to hang your ass out on that one. Haha.
The day will come, Justatard. When the Golan is the only avenue of attack for your beloved freedom fighters the boy Assad, lion of Damascus, can march at the head of his army straight into oblivion.
Justaguy writes: "I think you are idealizing Israel, they DO want to bomb people. Not all, but a sizeable slice of the population. These settlers are crazy and the Likudists are hawkish insane powermongers that want the whole of the original mandate for biblical reasons. They're dangerous nuts that have you enthralled."
Thanks for confirming my earlier opinion of your true biases.
*Justaguy,
Your claims about Israel never complying with UN resolutions is as false as most of your claims. The UN itself has certified that Israel complied with the resolution calling for Israel to withdraw from Lebanon. The same resolution calls for Hezbollah to be disarmed - which it hasn't.*
You may wish to check your facts. As always when dealing with Israel, it is buried in the detail. They maintain that Sheba Farms are part of the Golan, so that they are in breach only of the ceasefire with Syria.
They have actually changed their tune today. What a surprise.
And the other 50 or 60 UN resolutions?
Lebanon's civil war AND 22 year Israeli occupation you mean? You must have accidentally left out the Israeli sponsored part of the christian militia reference. I'm sure you wouldn't be disingenuous.
I was in Beirut last year and the rebuilding was nothing short of astonishing. To see that destroyed for Israeli macho pride sickens me.
"To see that destroyed for Israeli macho pride sickens me."
Israeli macho pride? Is it Israeli macho pride week again? I hate it when I miss that. What with all of the motorcycles, the Star Of Davids, and the leather little hat thingies with spikes. It's always a crowd pleaser.
Justaguy -- it's like the entire conversation just now didn't exist for you. Robin made a tremendously concise statmement:
"If the Lebanese do not wish Israel to conduct military operations in their territory, it is their responsibility to remove the forces from that territory that are attacking Israel. Your failure to acknowledge this simple fact renders all of your comments irrelevant"
What part of that has anything to do with macho pride?
I would give out my secret number (832185) but it is part of the top secret defense system and I am sworn to secrecy. (Note to Joe: update secret number table)
Put another way -- terrorism will continue regardless of neocons, Israelis, whatever your little closet monster-of-the-week is. Each time a couple of guys kill a couple of thousand, democratically elected governments will have to come in and hurt a lot of people, most of them civilian. This is not negotiable -- it is part of the structure of democratic governments. So you can rant all you want about whatever, but either governments control their crazy people, or a lot of innocent people will die. That's just the facts of life, justaguy.
Well, that is a recipe for anarchy on a grand scale and it doesn't actually tolerate reality on the ground. It would also require strengthening the UN on the basis of administreing international law, which would be an anathema for you ultranationalists.
For all diplomacy's failings it still worked a hell of a lot better than the Bush doctrine of endless war and chaos. Syria complied with the UN resolution, yet Bushy won't talk to them. Iran was moderating and Bushy invaded their neighbours and won't talk to them. Whilst all the time sabre rattling and scare mongering. None of us really knows what either of them are doing BECAUSE Bushy won't talk to them.
It isn't exactly a grown up way to conduct foreign policy.
I have answered it often enough. You can't make an impossible demand and then destroy a country for noncompliance. The Lebanese Government had nil chance of disarming Hizbollah. Fact.
This is Israeli tactics all over. Make a ridiculously impractical demand and then murder innocents because it hasn't been complied with.
Or, make a show of giving something up, while stealing something else. And America falls for it every time.
Hey lets start a war and call it self defense.
To see that destroyed for Israeli macho pride sickens me
I see. Where's your concern for rockets launched into Israel? Promises by Iran to destroy Israel? Iran's nuclear program and sponsorship of Hezbollah?
I guess the nice new buildings of Beirut are more important.
Were we talking about rockets in israel? I thought we were talking about Israeli massacres in Lebanon.
This is the usual dissembling tactic of the Israel worshippers. Moral equivalence my arse.
justaguy and I had an exchange at Winds last week that I'd like to bring up. He seems like a smart, literate, well-traveled fellow. He's putting forward arguments that are standard fare in large swathes of the U.S. hard left, and are probably near the consensus position of the European center-left. Judging from the positions taken by members of my extended family and by friends (offline, that is).
Just some food for thought. Doesn't mean justaguy's assertions are correct, just that they are common.
We discussed Dhimmitude (among other things) in the comments followting the July 24 post Hezbollah--Entwined and Enmeshed in Lebanon. Some excerpts (justaguy's words in italics):
Bart Hall 7/26 3:55 PM #19:
AMac 7/27 2:55 PM #38:
justaguy 7/28 12:44 AM #
AMac 7/28/06 03:51 AM #49:
justaguy 7/28/06 04:33 AM #50:
#52 from AMac 7/28/06 05:13 AM #52:
#53 from justaguy 7/28/06 06:10 AM #53
The exchanges continued (search "dhimmi" to follow it, if desired), ending with the following comment:
justaguy 7/29/06 10:23 PM #65:
My interpretation is that justaguy is viewing the unfolding events in Lebanon through the lens of a history that is, in important ways, disconnected from the past as it is known to scholars and as it is represented in trustworthy history books. The spectre of dhimmitude is an important factor that haunts multi-confessional and secular societies that must co-exist with Islamist states. And, now, Islamist NGOs, especially those espousing millenialist Shi'ia or takfiri Sunni doctrines.
Given that dhimmitude is just one of the historical points in dispute, it's unsurprising that justaguy and I couldn't find much common ground in discussing current events.
For my part, if a couple of readers get curious and follow either of the links on the subject in this comment, I'll consider my typing to have been worth the effort.
We were talking about what sickens you, which you brought up (no pun intended). I was just wondering how far it extended. Not very far, I guess.
I hadn't realized that rockets launched into Israel annd promises by Iran, in the midst of building nukes, to destroy Israel, were not relevant to Israel's action.
I love how in his first post to that thread he chided other posters for their "hyperbolic irrelevance." Best laugh I've had in 17 days.
The Allies in WW2 caused a huge number of civilian casualties in the effort to win the war. It was a non issue. It may have been the only way to effectivley win the war. Is collateral damage all that bad? Do we not need kill the civilian support structure of the enemy by killing large numbers of the enemies population? Did it not make sense to not only kill the German military force, but also to kill as many factory workers, truck drivers, and farmers?
Why is this a big deal now and not back then?
*51 from Tom Cohoe on July 31, 2006 04:09 AM
Were we talking about rockets in israel?
We were talking about what sickens you, which you brought up (no pun intended). I was just wondering how far it extended. Not very far, I guess.
I hadn't realized that rockets launched into Israel annd promises by Iran, in the midst of building nukes, to destroy Israel, were not relevant to Israel's action.*
OK, several points there. I see your original comment (as I've seen it many times) as a means of dissembling through some moral equivalence thangy.
Secondly, I don't really know what I feel for the victims in Israel. I really don't. I've met some good Israelis and I certainly don't wish ill on any individual Israeli. But, I've also met some settler types that were truly evil people with a biblical hatred of arabs. The Likudists represent these people. They aren't interested in peace, they want all of Palestine.
Thirdly, you have no evidence whatsoever that Iran is building a nuclear weapon. All the actual verifiable evidence from the IAEA from before Bush created his utterly mindless (and may I say suspicious) stand-off with Iran and got the inspectors booted out suggests that a)they are years away from energy capability, b) that there was no evidence that they sought weapons grade processing capability.
Ahjemeinbad (sp?) has never said that Iran would attack Israel. It is a matter of record that the Islamic world does not accept the partition of Palestine as a done deal without justice for the Palestinians, so there is nothing remarkable about the rhetoric. He does not have much power anyway and without more sabre rattling from the Bushies will probably lose the next election anyway. He is a populist that was a rank outsider before the Iranian middle classes percieved that their security situation was breaking down.
They have a lot of baggage with the notion of the US as a friendly power you know. Quite legitimately. 1953, Saddam etc
Some of the "truths" about Iran and Syria (and indeed Hizbollah and Hamas) don't bear much in depth scrutiny. Sensational accusations of TERRORIST!!!!! don't help much.
I don't spout Hizbollah propaganda on here, but most of what I get back is straight from the Israeli Ministry of Truth.
Oh, and further to point 2. Hizbollah didn't fire any rockets until Israeli artillery was fired into Lebanon. Although they are poorly targeted, their military hit rate is much higher than the Israeli "smart" weapons that are given to them by you. To me, and many people outside the US, that is a clear indication of just who is targeting civilians. Further, Israeli provocation has been going on for months prior to the open hostilities. Your media is not giving you both sides of the story, again.
Perhaps you're mistaken.
Really? Who would blame them after generations of Arabs trying to destroy them.
And what would constitute proof that a nihilist couldn't scoff at?
No, he has said that Israel would soon be destroyed.
Is that so?
aMac, there were thriving Jewish quarters in every arab city prior to 1947. Every society, religion or empire can be selectively disentangled to be as cruel or as kind as the author wishes it to be.
I've travelled and worked in many of these places. It is patently wrong to persecute the whole of the muslim world on the basis of isolated incidents in history or interpretations of the qu'ran by a few extremists.
It is patently ridiculous to believe that they have the means to invade or subjugate you in some way (or Israel).
It is also blatantly obvious that you will not defeat this percieved threat though military action or state terrorism (thats what it is). If ever this is to go away, there has to be a just settlement. It will never be perfect but it could be a whole lot less dangerous than what we have now.
How many willing martyrs are we creating right now and again, what is the purpose? Israel has to accept that others have the right to their own defence too.
And I still don't get this idolization in the US. It makes no sense.
Really? Who would blame them after generations of Arabs trying to destroy them.
Tom, don't you think the Palestinians, and the Lebanese have some legitimate grievances?
You can add the Syrians to that.
Yes. Israel's very existence is a provocation isn't it?
And what would constitute proof that a nihilist couldn't scoff at?
Are you calling me a nihilist? That would be ironic indeed. As to the meat, how about a rigorous inspections regime as provided for under the NNPT? As was the case BEFORE Bushy got involved.
Even if they did want a bomb, they'd be at least 10 years away and they'd have to hide it from the world. Unlike the Israelis did with the complicity of the US and apartheid South Africa.
*#59 from Tom Cohoe on July 31, 2006 05:12 AM
Israeli provocation has been going on for months
Yes. Israel's very existence is a provocation isn't it?*
Actually, I'm talking about abductions, assassinations, sonic boom flights in Lebanese and Syrian airspace, obfuscation over the Sheba Farms, poisoning wells and stealing water, laying land mines.
Not to mention the occupied territories, killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank, the forced removal of tens of thousands in the Jordan Valley, the economic strangulation of Palestine. The usual.
I think that when your existence is under threat by peoples who have been in a state of war against you from the beginning, you have a right to defend yourself, and that that comes ahead of worrying about the 'grievances' of the descendants of the losers in the original attack on Israel.
Justaguy, you have the nerve to claim a "just settlement" will end hostilities after bringing up Shebaa Farms? You really shouldn't let your emotions get the best of you.
Why does the U.S. support Israel? Because we already made the mistake of embargoing them for two decades only to see them pushed to the brink in '73. And when some of us say "never again" we actually mean it. Then there's also support for signing treaties with Egypt and Jordan. I bet those two really torch your ass, eh?
No.
justaguy #57:
I agree with some of your specific comments. As I noted earlier, the difficulty is that we don't share a framework in which to interpret them.
Really?
I'll believe that you believe the plain meaning of what that quote says--when I see you passionately and cogently take the Israeli side of this discussion (since you're claiming that they can be selectively disentangled to be as kind as you wish them to be). Till then, I'll suspect that you do have fairly fixed moral values. You just assign different ones to different parties than I do.
Mentioning suicide bombers and an endless state of war would be moral equivalence wouldn't it?
So there is no truth then? Now that would be nihilist. I presume you were being ironic?
Wrong again.
*One was the undeclared shipment of two tons of uranium from China in 1991. Decidedly pre-Bush I think.
Enjoying the discussion so far and learning more with every post, but one thought that I keep returning to: purely from a negotiations perspective, I am not certain what Israel could do vis-a-vis Hezbollah expect to seek their total destruction, since that is Hezbollah's stated position towards Israel. There doesn't seem to be any common ground there to reach a mutually agreeable solution. It would appear obvious that the right of existence of the counterparty needs to be a given before any negotiated solution can occur.
Given such an environment, what are the alternative courses of action that one would recommend to the Israeli government?
I'll believe that you believe the plain meaning of what that quote says--when I see you passionately and cogently take the Israeli side of this discussion (since you're claiming that they can be selectively disentangled to be as kind as you wish them to be). Till then, I'll suspect that you do have fairly fixed moral values. You just assign different ones to different parties than I do.
Fair comment, but everything I've seen in my travels and my reading between the lines suggests that Israel is the biggest impediment to peace in the middle east, and that they remain defiant because they have the US public hood winked.
Secondly, the more I read the blogs and press/pundits supporting the GWOT and more war, more violence, the less reliance on verifiable facts I see. And frankly, unbridled racism based on dubious tales.
I would argue against an antijewish opponent if they started quoting the elders of zion rubbish and I do the same for the antiislamic rubbish.
Who's purpose does it srve to promote racism and marginalize the moderate voices in the arab world? Or, for that matter, promoting Likudist expansionism ahead of moderate Israeli opinion?
I maintain that the concept of dhimmitude is false scaremongering. Again, they aren't going to invade you anyway.
oops, sorry
666333
[ 1st of 2 accidental duplicate posts deleted, no problem. -- Marshal Festus ]
Well goodnight.
fretensisx #69:
Yep. You'd think that one oughtn't have to be Israeli or a cheerleader for them (I don't count myself as either) to recognize the problem that you just succintly outlined.
There are other aspects to the Arab-Israeli conflict that pose real problems for the Arab side; some have come up on this thread. But that doesn't make your observation go away.
justaguy #55 -
Says:I'd love to see a source on this...A.L.
*#66 from Tom Cohoe on July 31, 2006 05:33 AM
abductions, assassinations,
Mentioning suicide bombers and an endless state of war would be moral equivalence wouldn't it?*
Endless state of war? No disrespect but both Lebanon and Syria had negotiated a peace treaty with Israel that required them to leave the Golan. Israel, instead, built settlements.
This is Syria's orchard and bread basket and vital to its economy.
Is a suicide bomber any worse than an F16 or a tank?
Again, why can't you recognise that Israels neighbours have legitimate grievances?
I'd like to suggest that air power never won a war (Hiroshima notwithstanding). I think Israel would do better to study the campaigns of MacArthur in the Pacific than those of Eisenhower in Europe.
"The human shield argument just doesn't wash and we know it," an IDF commander says. "We don't expect Hezbollah to deploy in the open with a sign that says 'here we are.'"
hehe what a joke.
Wonder why Mark Perry friend of Arafat and as such terror political enabler... has a space here since he doesnt say anything usefull that can improve the behaviour of combatants. Au contraire! he reinforces the terrorism and use of civilians.
We are already paying for it. And it wil be worse much worse.
"Is a suicide bomber any worse than an F16 or a tank?"
You just dont have clue isnt it : Whatever is used against civilians.
Then you dont even engage your brain:
a) Israel has radar warning systems that protect their civilians.
b) Israel is destroying the weapons that would be causing civilian deaths.
But probably i should have stayed quiet because you're in bad faith.
Well ladies and gentlemen, Israel claims it didn't hit that building.
So what caused the damage? A hizzie work accident maybe? Why would the hizzies have a bunch of people in or on top of an ammo bunker?
I lived until 2002 in a small southern village near Mardshajund that is inhabited by a majority of Shias like me. After Israel left Lebanon, it did not take long for Hezbollah to have its say in other towns. Received as successful resistance fighters and armed to the teeth, they stored rockets in bunkers in our town as well. The social work of the Party of God consisted in building a school and a residence over these bunkers! A local sheikh explained to me laughing that the Jews would lose in any event because the rockets would either be fired at them or if they attacked the rockets depots, they would be condemned by world opinion on account of the dead civilians. These people do not care about the Lebanese population, they use them as shields, and, once dead, as propaganda. As long as they continue existing there, there will be no tranquility and peace.
Dr. Mounir Herzallah, Berlin-Wedding
Good on Don for getting the right spin on this tragedy.
#69 from fretensisx on July 31, 2006 05:40 AM
Enjoying the discussion so far and learning more with every post, but one thought that I keep returning to: purely from a negotiations perspective, I am not certain what Israel could do vis-a-vis Hezbollah expect to seek their total destruction, since that is Hezbollah's stated position towards Israel. There doesn't seem to be any common ground there to reach a mutually agreeable solution. It would appear obvious that the right of existence of the counterparty needs to be a given before any negotiated solution can occur.
Given such an environment, what are the alternative courses of action that one would recommend to the Israeli government?
A fair question without any easy answers. There are lines in the sand on both sides that preclude talks as it stands. The Israelis won't talk until the other side cedes recognition AND gives up the right of return . The arab sides won't cede recognition and clearly the Palestinians won't give up the right of return until the Israelis agree to statehood in good faith.
Both sides have to recognise the other's negotiating position. In my opinion the Israelis have never bargained in good faith, usually taking the opportunity to grab more land. And they've refused to talk at all since hamas was elected.
Until an honest broker can be found, it won't go anywhere and arabs will keep dying in great numbers. That doesn't seem to concern Americans though, you all seem to be cheering for more deaths with greater apocalyptic overtones.
Your country used to stand for lofty ideals. Now you don't even bother with the rhetoric.
Never again? Tell that to an arab.
For all the rubbishing of your allies in America, we'll end up paying to repair the destruction in the Lebanon. The Israelis won't pay a cent and niether will you yanks. We'll pay the lot until your little pals decide they have to flex their military muscle again and destroy it all again.
Meanwhile, you fund Israels existence and the military industrial complex gets richer. Great system.
But still noone has answered, what the f..k do the Israelis do for you?
Give you the next 11/9?
Well ladies and gentlemen, Israel claims it didn't hit that building.
Ho ho just like that. Easy eh?
Doesn't explain the fact that they were shelling the village all night though. Hmmm.
I happen to have a nice bridge that I need to sell.....
And there was no doubt of the missile which killed all those children yesterday. It came from the United States, and upon a fragment of it was written: "For use on MK-84 Guided Bomb BSU-37-B". No doubt the manufacturers can call it "combat-proven" because it destroyed the entire three-storey house in which the Shalhoub and Hashim families lived. They had taken refuge in the basement from an enormous Israeli bombardment, and that is where most of them died.
In the US, do they get murderers to investigate their crimes?
Qana 10 years ago
Apparently this is where your Jesus turned water into wine.
#75 justaguy,
You are a historical ignoramus. How did you get so stupid? Did it require an education?
There was never a peace treaty between Israel and Lebanon or Syria. Not since the founding of Israel in 1948. When Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon attacked the UN established State of Israel.
The Golan was lost to Israel when Syria attacked Israel in '67 and Syria lost it again in '73. What a bunch of losers. How did Syria lose it twice? Israel gave it back once.
If Syria wants a peace treaty and the Golan back they can negotiate. Syria's position is: return the Golan first then negotiations. Not. Going To, Happen. Fool me once.....
The Proud. The Few. The Jews.
Deal with it.
Armed Liberal #74-
If you don't care what you hit, your hit rate will be 100%.
And Hezbollah don't care - as long as they are killing Jews.
As for the Israeli response being disproportionate - well, I haven't seen reports of their using FAE warheads or incendiaries in this phase of the conflict. To say nothing of WMD.
If you harbour terrorists, expect to be bombed.
re#84,
Syria only lost it once. My mistake.
#81 justaguy,
And you believe the Hizbollah when they say it was Israel and not a work accident?
On what basis?
Israeli Report on Qana Attack
Justaguy,
I see you continue to deny the fact that the UN has certified Israel's compliance with resolution 1559 - and that Hezbollah/Lebanon is not in compliance.
Your attempt to blame Israel for the continued and illegitimate belligerancy of Hezbollah is rather indicative of your lack of credibility in this discussion.
A few points:
-Hezbollah without question has been using civilian populations to launch attacks from.
- Hezbollah, according to one of the UN peacekeeper later killed in the Israeli airstrike, used UN peacekeeper positions- not just to hide in- but in his opinion to intentionally lure Israeli strikes into the UN area.
-Israeli has no incentive to intentionally target civilians, much less children. They have a huge incentive to avoid hitting them, even accidently. The idea that Israel is trying to kill civilians intentionally is ludicrious, if that were there wish they could kill them by the tens of thousands with ease.
-Hezbollah, on the other hand, intentionally, brazenly, publicly targets Israeli civilians even to the exclusion of targeting military units. They do it every day with over a hundred rockets.
All of this is irrelevant because the world believes what is chooses to believe. Israel will back down from this fight not so much because the world demands it- but because the Israeli leadership has no clear idea of what it wants to do aside from 'defeating Hezbollah'. The things necessary to carry that out are not being contenanced by Olmert and his cabinet (cutting supply lines to Syria physically and sending in overwhelming numbers of troops to crush them) because the political will doesnt exist. The compromise strategy, like most compromise strategies, has proved counterproductive at best.
There is a report at "Captain's Quarters" that the Israeli Cabinent has approved taking down Hizbolla strategically. That means Syria has to go, although they don't say that.
Link here. [ link moved from the first line of the comment into its body, to preserve front-page formatting. -- Marshal Festus ]
This fits in well with the plan I have outlined.
Stratfor has this to say:
The Bekaa is crucial to Israel's ground campaign, but will have to be dealt with carefully and will likely require more time for major ground combat. In the meantime, Israel is carefully regaining the element of tactical surprise by reducing the war to routine and strongly suggesting that its forces are getting bogged down. Each day Israel and Hezbollah exchange fire, but no developments have dramatically changed the course of the war. While Israel may be developing an atmosphere of complacency around Hezbollah, it will launch its ground offensive when everyone least expects it.
The fact that a major ground offensive is the last thing on anyone's mind does not necessarily decrease the possibility -- it increases it. The movement of troops, rather than the public statements, will only tell if we are right.
Which meshes well with what I have been saying. The Bekaa is key to getting Syria to attack.
Joe or any marshal - if you want to reprint my article at WoC I think it would be a coup.
Here is my permission in advance.
#90 Mark,
Looks like I have called it and you have been fooled (like so many on this board - hi Don).
Let us hope Hizbollah and the Syrians have been fooled as well.
The saving grace for you is that what will happen is your desired outcome. Cheers.
Simon
M Simon, you could be right. I outlined what i would do were i Israel a few threads back and the best I could come up with at this point is to headfake a peace settlement and then launch a true multifaceted campaign attempting to run the table. That could be what is happening here.
But here is the problem- why have we gotten to where we currently are? Israel could have had even more strategic surprise and had far more leeway from Washington and the UN had they launched the ambitious campaign immediately. It seems extremely implausible that Israel intentionally stumbled out of the blocks when there is no advantage to it. Hence, Occam suggests Olmert made a strategic blunder and now has to recover from it. Nothing in his decision making here-to-for leads me to believe he is the kind of individual who will embrace a bold and risky course of action when even his tepid response failed. It takes an extraordinary individual to recover from a mistake with that kind of audacity, and nothing I have seen out of this Israeli administration leads me to conclude they are capable of that. You could be right, but I think face value is a much more likely scenario at this point. Olmert is not Sharon, he is looking to punt, not going for the endzone.
"Looks like I have called it and you have been fooled (like so many on this board - hi Don)."
Umm, Simon, i'd wait till those chickens hatch. Hate to say it but everything that is happening is much more easily explained as the opposite of what you are predicting, as I said above.
Simon, I read your links. The Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz has been at odds with Olmert since the initial Gaza kidnapping. The captain quarters link is his view on what to do, but the rest of the cabinet already shot down his request for widening the conflict and refused to supply him more troops for Southern Lebanon. Peretz is about the only one that has been talking sense in the cabinet, but he has been consistantly outvoted. Unless there is a major shakeup, I wouldnt plant my feather on that.
As far as the Stratfor link, its always interesting but rarely informative in my view. They never source their views so its hard to say what is their opinion based on what they see and what may actually be inside baseball. They've been predicting our emminent victory in Iraq for years. Smart guys, but i always shudder when i hear so many absolutes with so few caveats.
#95 Mark Buehner,
All war is deception. You have been decieved. The "fighting" was to make the Israelis seem inept. I thought you read my piece. it was an enticement. To make Syria and Iran think they were fighting amateurs. Thus they believed their own wishes instead of analyzing the actual situation.
You also failed to note that more troops could be called up without further cabinent input for contigencies.
An attack by Syria is that contingency.
Syria must attack or lose face. And you know how those arabs are about face.
So far things are unfolding as I predicted.
To get a strategic victory Syria and Iran must go down. The plan I outline shows how it is and will be done. You have a script and a ring side seat. Enjoy.
#94,
Yes. And that is the beauty of the plan and the excellence of its execution.
It is too late to stop what is going down Syria and Iran have already lost.
"All war is deception."
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
"You have been decieved. The "fighting" was to make the Israelis seem inept."
I disagree. It makes no sense. The Israelis have gained nothing from it.
"You also failed to note that more troops could be called up without further cabinent input for contigencies."
Have they been? Where are the divisions massing?
"So far things are unfolding as I predicted."
So far it seems like anything that could possibly happen you would regard as proving your theory. Israel advances, you are right, Israel doesnt advance, you are right. That has the air of religion, not logic.
"You have a script and a ring side seat. Enjoy."
A good analyst isnt sure of his face in the mirror. You seem entirely too sure of just about everything. If I had a nickel for every self-assured prediction made around here that didnt pan out (many of them made by me!) i could buy the IDF and run things myself.
"It is too late to stop what is going down Syria and Iran have already lost."
I hope you're right. But that's still crazy talk. If a deal is brokered for a cease-fire in the next week or two and it takes, will that just be part of the grand strategy as well? Your predictions seem non-falsifiable to me.
Either way this conflict unfolds Lebanon is off the UN/internationalists' back burner. No longer can the UNSC or the SG put out press releases full of platitudes to UNIFIL and the Lebanese military thanking them for meaningless cooperation. Those days are over. Any way you slice that it is a net benefit for Israel. Even if it temporarily strengthens Hizb'allah. Remember, Lebanon apportions representation in the government along sectarian lines. Hizb'allah and Amal already have the Shi'a portion sown up. Unless they use a coup to rewrite the constitution they will not gain considerable influence inside the government. And if they do initiate a coup you're back in a full blown civil war initiated, in full view, by Hizb'allah. The game is up. Even if the sensationalists in the West don't see it.
#97,
Yes they have. They got the Arab street to force Syria to fight. Something Syria did not want to do.
The divisions will not mass before hand. That is part of the enticement. The Israelis will be on the defensive. Thus current strength will be adequate until more stuff can be rolled.
It is not crazy talk. It is based on solid analysis.
Read my piece. It is all there.
I read your peice. It is speculation built on speculation. Attaching a link to Sun Tsu or Liddle Hart is not documentation, its superfluous.
Syria is not going to attack Israel because Syria and Assad knows as well as you and I do that would be their last mistake.
Think about what you are saying. If Israel mobalizes its because they are about to go to war with Syria and Iran. If Israel doesnt mobalize its because they are about to go to war with Syria and Iran. If Israel smashes into the Bekaa Valley and routes Hezbollah, its because they are trying to draw in Syria. If Israel doesnt smash into the Bekaa Valley and is bogged down by Hezbollah, its because thay are trying to draw in Syria. Every one of your predictions is nonfalsifiable. Everything that happens is either support for your idea or proof there is a grand conspiracy afoot. This is how UFO believers talk.
How about one firm prediction. When will Syria attack Israel or vice-versa? I'll give you a 3 month window.
#98 frontinus,
Yes. That is another beauty of the plan. The American left will be totally demoralized. They absolutely do not see this coming. Because every one can see how inept the neocons are. Incompetents. Morons. Stupid Bush. etc.
November is going to be very hard for them.
Well, I wouldn't claim it is part of any plan. Israeli politicians are subject to the same foibles and failings as those in France or D.C. My point is that almost regardless of what Israel does in the long-term Hizb'allah is doomed as a militia in Lebanon. They can relocate to Damascus and put on Broadway musicals for all I care. There's no reason to concoct strategies or war plans to try to make Israel out to be the "winner" in this. Let justatard and the other toadies of Syria have a victory parade down the streets of Beirut with Hizb'allah flags. It. Just. Doesn't. Matter.
The thing I find funny is that the "anti-Zionists" just really, really need to hear Israel admit certain things. And they aren't going to get it. There will be peace in the ME with free and democratic Palestinians and Lebanese and Jordanians etc. and they will still frown and harrumph. Postmodern politics of emotion. Nothing more. They can't make an argument without spasms of pure emotion. It's the surest sign of moral retardation I've ever come across. They confuse their own personal discomfort for logic and whine when someone feels differently. Sadly, it's a sign of the times.
M. Simon,
I read your piece, and I hope you're right that Israel is doing as it needs behind a thick smoke screen of ineptitude.
But those eggs haven't hatched yet, and you're running out of fingers and toes.
#100,
It is written with people who haven't studied the military arts in mind. Thus Sun Tzu and Hart. Of course you are also familiar with the Dorsai novels which influenced my thinking. In fact if you look close there are two very short sentences taken out of one of the novels. Which are they?
It is a phased mobilization. Timing is everything.
My predictons are falsifiable by events.
The key event is getting Syria to attack. Something Syria did not want to do. Assad knows his Army will be destroyed if he attacks.
I can't tell you when. I can tell you where and who. Syria will attack Israel in the Bekaa Valley. It is also less likely that Syria will blow through the Japanese monitors on the Golan front.
The key is getting Syria to attack. That is the #1 goal. This is something Syria was dead set against in the beginning. It is suicide for Assad.
So high probability Bekaa. Low probability Golan. Certainty that Syria will do the attacking.
To tell you exactly when I would need inside sources. This is all deduction from open sources.
#103,
I have never been more confidant.
I'm reminded of one of Cromwell's Scottish enemies who said:
"We must either starve, disband, or go with a handful of men into England. This last seems the least ill, yet it seems very desperate".
This is the position of Syria/Iran. They have no good choices.
There's definitely one thing I have to agree with M. Simon on. Syria knows that if it loses Hizb'allah in southern Lebanon then they are truly screwed. Without that outlet they are left with the Golan which leaves lunatics living in their houses rather than someone else's. They either hold onto their proxy in Lebanon or do a Hama II when the crazies have nowhere else to go. Not a very enviable position for Assad. One wonders what he'll say when the big dogs in Tehran tell him "Well, ol' boy, you're all we've got left!"
M. Simon,
Can you please explain how Israel's recent buzzing of Assad's home with IDF planes fits into your senario?
That seems a warning for Syria to remain on the sidelines, not the appearance of weakness that your hypotheis should demand.
Also, can you suggest some tell-tale MSM clues that might indicate if Syria were mobilizing?
"The key event is getting Syria to attack. Something Syria did not want to do. Assad knows his Army will be destroyed if he attacks.
"I can't tell you when. I can tell you where and who. Syria will attack Israel in the Bekaa Valley. "
Umm... assumedly Israel will have to be in the Bekaa Valley to be attacked by Syria there. Strange strategy to entice Syria into attacking you by not being where you want them to attack you. Again, you seem to think that events are bearing out your hypothesis but they simply arent. Then you just chalk up every dispcrepancy to some grand super-strategy. This entire offensive has been designed to stay out of Lebanon north of the Litani River, but Israel hasnt even advanced that far (20 miles or so).
You are suggesting that Syria is going to attack Israel sometime in the future... but it could be any time? Not much of a prediction given their past, and i dont see how current events reflect that in the least. If anything Olmert has behaved exactly the opposite. And dont give me that 'its all part of the plan speech' because you cant have it both ways (if Israel invades the Bekaa Valley im right, if they dont im still right).
The proposal that Syria will at some moment before the end of the universe attack Israel is hardly what I would call a falsifiable theory. I for one dont have that kind of time.
I'm kindof pilling on at this point,
There was an interesting article in Salon a few days ago about how Hezbollah is paranoid of population centers (unlike terrorist groups in other countries) and keeps to private areas where area bombing is more difficult to affect; therefore he postulates that Israel's air campaign is actually doing very little to stop hezbollah.
Intreasting theory at least, read here
Seems that Israel's targeted bombs are better at hitting civilian than Hezbollah's rockets...the figures I am reading here, from before the Qana bombing, are Israel: 51 dead, including 18 civilians. Lebanon: 500 dead and rising, almost all of them civilians, 800,000 displaced persons.
The Israeli Justice Minister Hain Ramon has said that Israel now considers all people remaining soouth of the Litani River to be terrorists
It seems that this site is a circle jerk for US imperialist dreamers, so I'll leave you to it.
For a country with such an abysmal record in war and 2 ongoing catastrophes of your own, you do seem to generate a lot of chickenhawk fantasists. If you reduce Damascus and tehran to rubble and kill a few more hundred thousand civilians, what then?
Your puupet in Kabul can't even walk around the presidential palace without his bodyguards.
But the term chickenhawk is rarely understood by the chickenhawks.
Idiots will do. See ya cobbers.
I swear Justaguy is not my sock puppet!
Re: discussion between M. Simon and Mark Buehner: my money is on Buehner, this headline notwithstanding.
Israel might achieve some instance of a tactical victory on the ground in the next few days - but "the next few days" is probably all they have before a ceasefire. Syria will stay out of it.
Justaguy,
Your attempts to shift the blame for Hezbollah's actions got old awhile ago. Meanwhile, your insults have no more credibility than your other inventions.
#107 lurker,
Yes it would seem that the buzzing was a warning to stay out. It also was a humiliation and Assad treated it as such. Go back and read the reports. If Assad thinks the israelis are weak then he will try to avenge his humiliation. Cute no?
#108 Mark Buehner
Umm... assumedly Israel will have to be in the Bekaa Valley to be attacked by Syria there. Strange strategy to entice Syria into attacking you by not being where you want them to attack you.
So there you have a prediction that can be verified. Isn't that what I promised. To tell the future?
So were you predicting an attack by Syria? I haven't seen any one but me predicting that. All the pundits are/were saying Syria stays out. It is not to their advantage.
It gets better. Read the news.
OK. I'm predicting that Syria will attack Israel as part of this war. The trigger will be Israeli entrance into the Bekaa.
You are a hard guy to please. But I try.
Just a guy couldn't find a clue if you shoved it up his "nose".
justaguy:
You've shared your ignorance of history.
You've shown that you can see one side of a tragedy with clarity, whilst remaining blind to another.
In comment #110, you take argumentum ad hominem to a thinner-skinned, shriller level.
This sophistry might seem to be distracting, but it is instructive. For whatever set of reasons, Western countries' systems of socialization and education have produced a significant number of young men who think like you and, on the web at least, behave like you. In many if not most parts of the world, your opinions pass for informed and reasonable. If the West ever undertook a serious program of Public Diplomacy, a sizable plurality of "influentials" would come to the table with beliefs similar to those you have expressed. Quite a challenge.
Sorry for the harsh tone. Aside from politics and issues concerning ethnic and religious identity, you seem like a decent enough guy.
Anyone else remember Putin's smug remark last year after the arms sale to Syria? Something about how Israel would think twice about buzzing Damascus. I tried to dig it out Google but gave up. I hope Assad kept his receipts.
Israel is preparing for an attack by Syria.
Watch it unfold as I predicted.
#116 frontinus,
I missed that. Sweet. And the bit about the reciepts? Priceless.
Why are Russian clients so clueless?
#112 lewy14 ,
Well, well, well. Syria is preparing to go in. Israel is preparing to defend. See above links.
You picked the wrong guy in this discussion.
Events are moving faster than your brain can comprehend. Already there are indications you and Mark are wrong are in the news.
I love it when a plan comes together!
M. Simon,
You assume Syria has an army. Don't. Syria has a lot of people in uniform who can kill people who can't fight back. That isn't enough to make them an army.
#120 Tom,
Of course the Syrian Army is no good. That was the basis of every one but me predicting they would sit this one out.
Israel has enticed them to fight against their better judgement. Brilliant.
Even better, Tom, Syria will be forced on the offensive. Israel will have the advantage of the tactical defensive. Super genius brilliant.
They will be studying this at war colleges for the next 100 years at least.
Vegematic time. Slice and dice.
Simon
M. Simon,
Not. I doubt there will be any military conflict between Syria and Israel. If it does, Syria wins if Baby Assad or another Baathist is in power when it ends.
Syria is coming in. You can read it in the news. Israel is preparing to defend. Also in the news.
Israel is going to Damascus. Assad is going some place else.
Belief is hard to overcome. In Lebanon, Syria, Iran, and Winds of Change. LOL.
Bush and Olmert have promised strategic victory. Take it to the bank.
If I prove correct, prevail on Joe to get me to write it up.
Another verifiable prediction for Mark.
Bless you,
Simon
http://blissstreetjournal.bl*gspot.com/2006/07/op-tempo.html
Op Tempo
Stratfor's sources (and my local ones) indicate what may appear surprising - the IDF has actually stepped up operational tempo in the wake of the Qana attacks. Air activity has subsided somewhat, but local sources still report flights over Mount Lebanon and into the Bekaa (although greatly reduced in number today). IDF troops have pushed hard into the eastern border region in Lebanon, past Metulla and into Khiam. This did not just happen today, according to Lebanese media; probing operations began days ago and now it appears that a larger assault has been underway for some time.
I just found this today. Blogged at the above link: 8:03 PM [probably Israeli time - making it 0003z] 31 July '06
Those operations are on the "road" to Bekaa.
Are you listening Mark, Tom?
wrong time - it would be 1203z
This seems like
http://lebanonupdates.bl*gspot.com/
a good resource from the Lebanese side of Israeli operations in Lebanon.
Get out your maps, overlays, and pins.
Bekaa Road net
Political map of Lebanon
Air strikes in Lebanon [pdf]
Air strikes in Lebanon [jpg]
M. Simon - Spengler agrees with your strategic assessment, but (like me) doubts that Irael or the US have the will to carry it out. link.
Thanks also to Spengler for floating the idea that now would be a good time for Iran to get punk'd into shutting down the Straits of Hormuz so that the 7th fleet could remove that other "overhang". Short, sharp shock and then done, making the Iranian nuclear issue a bit more tractable. I was going to mention this myself but it's more cynical and Machiavellian than anything I'd want to associate my name with.
Just as well 'cause that ain't gonna happen, either.
#129 Lewy,
I read The Spengler piece yesterday. Usually he is pretty good. In that one he was totally fooled. IMO.
Keep you eye on this one. Bush and Olmert say Hizbollah will be strategically defeated. That can mean only one thing Syria and Iran. Take it too the bank.
I'm more than willing to say it too. I'm also willing to show how it can be done with the elements available.
The American/Israeli "incompetence" is an act. Early clue? Condi was making noises at the beginning about getting a cease fire ASAP. She looked distraught. Bush pulled her back. Ever since she has been smiling. Before her first visit to Israel Olmert was distraught. After he has been smiling.
Just like Iraq. No time table.
BTW if you look at the bomb plots there is very little bombing between Israel and Baalbeck. The road to Baalbeck is a major road.
The secret of modern mobility is the road net. Why? Logistics. Resupply. Tanks can do the off road thing. Trucks full of sandwiches can not.
Simon, i respect your passion for your position. But it remains the case that the best reading of this case is the obvious, that Israel has no choice but to push Hezbollah out of the border area or accept them as a permanent entity able to fire over the border at will.
It would be a particularly foolish strategy that relies on Syria doing something that is obviously suicidal for Syria to do. What profit does Syria gain for attacking Israel? Compared the risk of destruction? Assad is no genius but hes not a complete idiot. What would israel's backup plan be if Syria didnt pull the trigger? You dont seem to be much of one for Plan B, but thats not how professionals think. By your plan, Israel could be stuck up to its neck in Bekaa indefinately if Syria didnt play ball. Olmert, I think will not risk that. Everything he has done heretofore disclaims it.
#131 Mark Buehner,
It would be a particularly foolish strategy that relies on Syria doing something that is obviously suicidal for Syria to do.
I totally agree, except:
Assad instead of refoming Syria has allied himself with the Syrian street. The Syrian street is demanding that Syria get in the war.
Under the circumstance Assad has painted himself into a corner. He either gets into the fight, keeps his honor for a while and loses, then the street revolts, and his government falls. Or he stays out out of the fight, no longer looks strong (loses face) the street revolts, and his government falls.
I run this down with links at my blog.
Let me repeat: I'm reminded of one of Cromwell's Scottish enemies who said:
"We must either starve, disband, or go with a handful of men into England. This last seems the least ill, yet it seems very desperate".
=========================Iran has a similar problem for different reasons. The Iranian street is disgusted with the money the government wasted on terrorism. A victory might save them. A defeat is very likely to lead to open revolt.
Here is a link on conditions in Iran:
http://regimechangeiran.bl*gspot.com/2006/07/regime-run-newspaper-confession.html
So yeah. The Israelis have manuvered these guys until they have no good options. Brilliant generalship.
Look at other reports on Iran, there is a lot of unease in the country.
===============================BTW I saw a JPost article which at the end (in passing) said America suggested Israel attack Syria. Sorry no link.
The hints are piling up.
Like you I am biting my nails and waiting (hoping) for action.
"Assad instead of refoming Syria has allied himself with the Syrian street. The Syrian street is demanding that Syria get in the war."
1.Syria is a police state. If Assad doesnt want to go to war he wont go to war.
2.Dont overestimate the rhetoric of the street. Im sure Egyptian, Saudis, and Jordanians are calling for action as well, but they arent marching on Tel Aviv. Talk is cheap, as they say.
3.Assad may or may not be painted into a corner, but it seems unlikely to me that the man would embrace the certain pounding Israel would give him for the potential of his population rising up. The latter is a certainty, the former the regime has dealt with since its inception. Its part and parcel of being a dictator.
#133 Mark,
Good points.
Were you aware that an opposition leader was calling for entry into the war?
I'm not sure Syria is the total police state you envision.
Well its certainly a police state, I've just never been certain that Assad was in charge of it.
_AMac on August 1, 2006 03:42 AM
justaguy:
You've shared your ignorance of history.
You've shown that you can see one side of a tragedy with clarity, whilst remaining blind to another.
In comment #110, you take argumentum ad hominem to a thinner-skinned, shriller level.
This sophistry might seem to be distracting, but it is instructive. For whatever set of reasons, Western countries' systems of socialization and education have produced a significant number of young men who think like you and, on the web at least, behave like you. In many if not most parts of the world, your opinions pass for informed and reasonable. If the West ever undertook a serious program of Public Diplomacy, a sizable plurality of "influentials" would come to the table with beliefs similar to those you have expressed. Quite a challenge.
Sorry for the harsh tone. Aside from politics and issues concerning ethnic and religious identity, you seem like a decent enough guy._
Well aMac, as you have no idea who I am, that's a pretty funny way of countering "ad hominem" argument. My post wasn't argument, purely dismissal of the uncritical and unthinking regurgitation of rhetoric, propaganda and unreality displayed on this site.
What I will tell you is that for 30 odd years I've been looking at the middle east up close and from afar and dealing with people, in all but the rarified strata of life and power, in economic matters. I've watched the Israelis expand through ethnic cleansing and murder all that time and I've watched them expand their influence over an uncurious, disinterested and gullible US populace.
Chickenhawks like M. Simon are the first to pull out the 'antisemitic' tag, which is purely a device to stifle debate, and then unabashedly spew forth racist hate speech with impunity.
And, I can discern from the comments that few, if any, of you have travelled outside the US or have any clue about the reality in Israel. Liberal free-market democracy my arse.
My position is very close to the centre of world opinion but perhaps less forgiving of Israeli deception (due to my experience) than most.
You people on here are ultranationalist extremists with an Israel complex who think you have a handle on rationality and logic.
You are actually denying reality and practising self deception to mould fact to your views. Antirational, amoral and infused with a personality cult around a charismatic 'common man' figure.
And you call muslims fascists? Oh, the irony.
I wonder whether a single one of you has any clue of who will benefit from this endless war. It certainly won't be you. The neocon dream is a hoax based on the fukced up notion that limited military oppression can defeat global economic warfare.
7/8ths of your currency is in foreign hands and buying your assets back with them. Your treasury has been drained by the zionists and the MIC.
(If it gets that far) You'll lose.
Well aMac, as you have no idea who I am, that's a pretty funny way of countering "ad hominem" argument. . . . 7/8ths of your currency is in foreign hands and buying your assets back with them. Your treasury has been drained by the zionists and the MIC.
Mel Gibson?
Back to rehab Mel!
Seriously, justaguy. I believe my opinion is considerate of both sides here. You seem to be very willing to string together a lot of invective but little facts.
As far as the country being so bad off, we'll still keep doing the right thing. Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to convince the west that Israel should actually allow Hezbollah to carry on this way from another country. The score so far? -- ignorant poorly-traveled boobs: 27, you: 0
My favorite retort went like this:
POSTER A: Given such an environment, what are the alternative courses of action that one would recommend to the Israeli government?
JUSTAGUY: A fair question without any easy answers. There are lines in the sand on both sides that preclude talks as it stands.
This has to win my award for understatement of the week. Other people sworn to kill you, your children, and wipe you from the map? Well, hey, they just have difficult negotiating positions. LOL! That Hitler, man, he was a TOUGH negotiator with the Jews. Tough. Tough.
But your beef is with AMac. I just saw you with your flamethrower out and thought I'd comment. It isn't happy hour down at the Baath House again, is it? I hate it when I miss the $.25 Molotov Cocktails.
Daniel, I'm well aware that you won't/can't accept another viewpoint unless it corresponds to your bias, but in my view, everything you've said on here stinks of racism. And a particularly virulent racism that is making the world a more dangerous place. Likudism is a cancer and the Likudniks are no better than the Nazis.
All this stuff is easy when you don't see the consequences of your chickenhawk rhetoric put into action. Some of us do see it.
Let's see, justaguy. In the last comment I believe you've implied I'm a racist, chickenhawk, Nazi?
Hey. I'm not upset about it. If you don't have logic on your side, yell louder. That's what the lawyers do.
Let's reason. Get out your brain and put it to work. I'm telling you that you're shooting blanks here. I remember one salient question you asked "just what has Israel done for you?"
As if somehow Israel OR the Syrians OR the Pals would somehow be higher or lower on my list because of favortism. Hezbollah, I can tell you, killed over 200 Marines. So yes, I am biased there. But Lebanon? They seem like nice folks. Why can't they call in for help when they have armed idiots doing stuff like this?
I am all for a common set of rules that applies to everybody. Aren't you too?
#136unjustaguy,
I'm a proud veteran of the Vietnam War. I got the combat pay to prove it.
Reactor Operator, USS Bainbridge DLGN-25
The Proud. The Few. The Jews.
Deal with it.
Of course if you are not a veteran I'd say you had no right to comment on the subject.
So are you a vet?
I am all for a common set of rules that applies to everybody. Aren't you too?
I most definitely am. You are very definitely not. It is your ingrained racism and proIsraeli bias that precludes the possibility of you recognizing that fact.
Your double standards are obvious, You are not applying the same rules to Israel as you are to the arabs because you can't grasp the simple fact that the arabs have legitimate grievances.
By your own logic displayed amply throught these posts regarding civilian loss of life, then surely, Israel was to blame for your losses in Lebanon in the 80s.
Either that or you are applying double standards. QED
M. Simon, no I'm not, too young. But you are clearly misinterpreting the "chickenhawk" insult. You ultranationalists misinterpret most concepts (outside of I like vs I hate) it seems.
"...I most definitely am. You are very definitely not..."
Am too! Am too! Am too!
(Laughing)
Well then, big guy, it is up to you to illustrate areas where your statement is true. What are the rules for firing on civilians? What are the rules for responding to cross border agression?
Hey I got a million of them. None of which have anything to do with the middle east. What do you have? So far, you keep on swinging, but you're not connecting with much.
"...You are not applying the same rules to Israel as you are to the arabs because you can't grasp the simple fact that the arabs have legitimate grievances..."
Ah yes, but the point in having sane standards is that everybody has grievances. Once you start the "I've got a grievance" game, no progress is made at all.
But you're smart enough to know that, right? I mean, only losers try to argue by saying "but I'm more offended than you are!" That's stupid.
justnotaguy,
Hizbollah and Hamas have constructed core ideologies based upon this Islamic theology of Jew hatred, which one can glean readily from their foundational documents, and subsequent pronouncements, made ad nauseum. Hamas further demonstrates openly its adherence to a central motif of Jew-hatred in Muslim eschatology—Article 7 of the Hamas Charter concludes with a verbatim reiteration of the apocalyptic hadith alluded to earlier:
“The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: `Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him’; but the tree Gharkad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985).
Apocalyptic Muslim Jew-hatred.
Now if people want to hate Jew I'm not going to get too upset. Their loss.
If people act on that hatred then they are in deep crap.
If people want to hang around active Jew haters then they are not safe. If the Jew haters shelter behind thei own women and children the best I can say is "unfortunate" the worst is "another family of haters out of the gene pool". Capiche?
If people are forced at gunpoint to shelter the haters we as Jews will try to kill as few as possible. Preferably zero. However, given reality some times it will be a lot. As in every hostage situation it is the folks holding the hostages who are at fault.
Jews have a very long history. We have long memories. But, I tell you what. Leave us alone, we leave you alone. F with us and you won't like the results.
So let the word get out. We are a biker gang. Nicest people you want to meet. Until you F with them. Quit F ing with them and all is forgiven.
How hard can it be?
*
Well see, regarding the civilians, again you're making up the rules as you go along and you are not applying the rules equally. We have a sset of rules which Israel and the US seem to think don't apply to them (just to everyone else).
You have no evidence apart from sources within the great muslim hating neocon echo chamber that Hizbollah actually does use women and children as shields and the simple truth is that you are just spouting antiHizbollah Israeli propaganda. There is absolutely no evidence that Hizbollah were holding the victims in Qana hostage. You are batantly lying through your teeth.
It is Israeli bombing stopping the old, the sick and the poor from leaving.
The facts are out there.
"...Well see, regarding the civilians, again you're making up the rules as you go along and you are not applying the rules equally. We have a sset of rules which Israel and the US seem to think don't apply to them (just to everyone else). .."
Great. Another accusation. Prove it.
I'm not arguing about the Qana bombings. As far as I'm concerned, the Lebanese are very lucky. Mondern munitions have pinpoint targeting capability. Used to be the combatants would just drop BFBs all over the place.
"It is Israeli bombing stopping the old, the sick and the poor from leaving."
Another accusation. This one maybe I'll buy into a bit. But the TV folks get around pretty good. They drive all over the place. Do they have magic vehicles? You warn the population and then you commence bombing. Do you have a concrete suggestion about how much warning a combatant should give? Didn't think so.
So in reply to my question, I get.....bupkus. Nada. Zilcho. Nothing. Just another lashing out at the Israelis and more righteous indignation. Gee. Haven't we had enough people climbing up on the high moral horse already?
The rules of warfare have not changed, and they are no different for the US or Israelis than for anybody else. Certainly you know that -- many folks have tried to patiently explain it to you on this board. Maybe they are all poorly-traveled chickenhawk Nazis, sure. But they've been honest with you. And they've told you things you could freely look up anywhere on the internet you like. Certainly the entire internet isn't out to get you, is it?
Do I need to provide a link to the Geneva and Hague Conventions?
Geeeez. Its pretty simple.
Knock yourself out
Some more light reading
And you could have a look here too.
The IDF would never lie
The truth doesn't seem to matter to your right wingnut echochamber pals does it?
For all the rubbish about defence, tactics and wider conflict etc I'll be very surprized if the Israelis don't just steal the water from the Litani River. They've wanted it for decades, and most of their aggressive murderous campaigns have been about water of late.
Of course, that wouldn't fit in with your view of their heroic struggle for freedom, truth and justice, but there you go. I'll put it out there.
Have a nice day now y'hear, cobber.
[ Broken links fixed. -- M.F. ]
Oooops again. Sorry forgot the colons.
Another accusation. This one maybe I'll buy into a bit. But the TV folks get around pretty good. They drive all over the place. Do they have magic vehicles? You warn the population and then you commence bombing. Do you have a concrete suggestion about how much warning a combatant should give? Didn't think so.
You are denying the reality on the ground. There are thousands of people still trapped there. There are few cars, no fuel (among the first targets were the petrol stations), many roads are blocked and many civilian vehicles have been attacked by Israeli aircraft and tank fire (including convoys given safe passage assurances). Jebus, even the UN convoy trying to get their dead out came under Israeli fire.
Get yourself a satellite dish man. Fox news is utter Israeli bull excrement.
So let's look at your claim:
"We have a sset of rules which Israel and the US seem to think don't apply to them (just to everyone else). .."
I asked you for proof. In return, you gave me a link to the geneva conventions and the Hague Convention, which you listed twice.
Forgive my simple mind. We cobbers get along as best we can, but to me you're still swinging at thin air. Was that a reply? Or just a google of rules about warfare? Your claim was that the US and Israel do not think these rules apply to them. So -- and mabye my tiny cobber mind is overwhelmed here -- but shouldn't you provide a link for some official Israeli or United States person who says just that? I mean, you can provide a link for them saying something, and then perhaps a link from an expert that would tell us that they this was in violation of the agreements. Something. Anything. Come on. You can do it. I have faith in you.
"...even the UN convoy trying to get their dead out came under Israeli fire..."
I think perhaps the term "war zone" is not registering the degree of barbarity and danger that might be appropriate.
People get killed in war zones. Innocent people. If you can walk, you should be walking out of there. Once again, true for any war, has nothing to do with this current conflict. Ergo, if I see somebody who is ambulatory on TV, they do not want to leave. For whatever reason.
Sorry, not enough time (or patience) for this.
The 3rd link should have been this.
Haaretz re Qana
If you read the Geneva Conventions, and there are some reasonable brief summaries around, and compare the rules to what the Israelis are doing in Lebanon (and let's not forget the ongoing massacre in Gaza) and things that the US are doing in Iraq, any rational mind can find numerous instances of war crimes.
The UN and the Red Cross have evidence of phosphorus and cluster bombs being used and certainly DU munitions are being used.
I am well aware that you are getting very limited one sided coverage in the US. The carnage in Lebanon is far far worse than you probably think. The south is being levelled. Civilian infrastructure including schools and refugee relief centres are being targeted in the North as well. I saw footage yesterday of a supermarket next to a medical centre in a christian town being hit by Israeli ATG missiles.
There is even some doubt as to whether the original soldiers killed and abducted were on the Israeli side of the border. This has been planned well in advance and it is a crime against humanity.
#154 justnotinformed,
Sheltering behind civilians is a war crime.
Says so in the conventions.
#154 justnotinformed,
Sheltering behind civilians is a war crime.
Says so in the conventions.
Very true. And any breach should be prosecuted.
Have any evidence of Hizbollah doing that? Aside from silly unsubstantiated "truths" on racist antiislamic/arab websites?
There have been numerous reports over the years of Israeli troops using Palestinian civilians as human shields.
Echochamber mentality.
I am well aware that you are getting very limited one sided coverage in the US.
That's what we're getting from you. You aren't the God of Truth in my eyes. That may make me an Nazi, but there you have it (the definition of Nazi seems to have loosened up quite a bit over the years).
What kind of dopes do you think you're talking to with your "trust me, not Fox" talk?
justnotinformed,
Cluster bombs are legal munitions, white phosphorous is a legal munition, the #1 danger from DU is getting hit by it. Otherwise it is a heavy metal, like lead. The radiation is alpha particles. Which can be stopped by a sheet of paper.
You shure do seem to have a lot of ignorace included in your education.
Mark et. al.,
Jerusalem Post Quoted here:
There's a war going on out there! [ link fixed. -- M.F. ]
Israeli jet fighters struck deep inside Lebanese territory, hitting Hermel, some 120 kilometers north of the Israeli border in the Bekaa Valley in eastern Lebanon. Warplanes fired at least five air-to-surface missiles on the edge of the town, targeting a road linking eastern Lebanon to western regions and the coastline.
About six hours later, warplanes returned to attack Hermel again, hitting a pickup truck loaded with cooking gas tanks, security officials said. The canisters exploded, sending flames shooting up from the vehicle for nearly an hour. The driver had pulled over and exited the vehicle before the attack, and was not hurt, they said. [Somehow, I doubt those tanks had cooking gas in them. CiJ]
Nice simple topo map of Lebanon with major cities. Ballbeck is shown.
You don't have to trust me. You could look around the world for yourself. You yanks are isolated on this.
But if you think that Fox is giving you news, then ....don't bother. It won't help. I've watched that scumbag Murdoch for years. Not pretty.
I have. I'm not a Yank. I don't watch Fox.
I lived until 2002 in a small southern village near Mardshajund that is inhabited by a majority of Shias like me. After Israel left Lebanon, it did not take long for Hezbollah to have its say in other towns. Received as successful resistance fighters and armed to the teeth, they stored rockets in bunkers in our town as well. The social work of the Party of God consisted in building a school and a residence over these bunkers! A local sheikh explained to me laughing that the Jews would lose in any event because the rockets would either be fired at them or if they attacked the rockets depots, they would be condemned by world opinion on account of the dead civilians. These people do not care about the Lebanese population, they use them as shields, and, once dead, as propaganda. As long as they continue existing there, there will be no tranquility and peace.
Dr. Mounir Herzallah
Berlin-Wedding
A translation of a German letter from a Lebanese Shia who lived in the southern area controlled by Hizballah. From: Berlin left-wing daily Die Tagesspiegel
So what do you think now unjust? Proof enough?
justnotmuchofaguy,
Here are some pictures of Hizbolla weapons positions in civilian neighborhoods. Scroll down.
These same pictures smuggled out of Hizbollah controlled areas and originally published in an Australian newspaper are all over the net. For such a well educated guy, I'm suprised you missed them.
I think there are gaping holes in your education.
Proof? You're having a giraffe, mate.
A couple of fat blokes on a truck with a WW2 aac aac gun. Hahahahahahahaha
If this sort of bollocks is 'proof', I've got a nice bridge I can sell you cheap.
Get real.
Cluster bombs are legal munitions, white phosphorous is a legal munition, the #1 danger from DU is getting hit by it. Otherwise it is a heavy metal, like lead. The radiation is alpha particles. Which can be stopped by a sheet of paper.
Cluster bombs are not legal weapons in civilian ares, which would preclude their use in South Lebanon totally. Phosphorus bombs are an illegal chemical weapon under the Geneva accords.
There is ample statistical evidence from Southern Iraq that DU munitions have significant delerious long term negative health and environmental impacts. The WHO was doing a definitive study on this until the security situation broke down in Iraq. (Which in and of itself is a war crime).
um, that would be deleterious effects
666333
justaguy,
I read your response #136 to my remarks higher up, at #115. Thanks for the additional comments; I think some on-the-fence readers might find them insightful.
I'll let my note stand. Mine and yours go well together, I think.
Just a couple of side remarks.
Israel poured up to 10,000 armored troops into south Lebanon Tuesday, and separately sent commandos deep into the eastern Bekaa Valley where they raided a Hezbollah-run hospital and captured guerrillas during pitched battles, a major escalation of the three-week-old war.
The Israeli military confirmed the attack on the ancient city of Baalbek, about 80 miles north of Israel. It said troops, ferried in by helicopter, captured an unspecified number guerrillas and all soldiers returned unharmed. The statement gave no other details.
The Baalbek raid was the deepest ground attack on Lebanon since fighting began 21 days ago.
Attack in the Bekaa
Well Mark et al what do you think now.
Cliff notes version of Justatard:
aMac
MIC = Military Industrial Complex.
Was it Eisenhower that warned about the threat to US democracy that they represented? Matbe it was Rooseveldt. A republican anyway.
They had way too much power in your politics even before Reagan/Bush1 started contracting out half the military's functions to the Haliburtons and Bechtels.
My view is that the UN and institutions of international law need strengthening through serious reform. I don't see it happening though in my lifetime.
You can scoff but the outside world sees the US as the greatest threat to peace in the world, and I think they have a point.
Didn't expect to change minds. Spark a bit of honest research is my best hope.
Gotta go. See ya.
Thanks, justaguy. Re: MIC, Eisenhower gave that speech:
I'm keeping an eye on the Bekaa here:
http://powerandcontrol.bl*gspot.com/2006/08/lebanon-bekaa-attacks-maps.html
justaguy.
Thanks for the links. Didn't help any at all.
So I googled around some on my own. I guess I'm going to have to do your work for you?
Googling "war crimes" and "cluster bombs" gives you a bunch of partisan rants, mostly from the left. Discarding these (they might be great, but time is short) I went to the Wiki article on War Crimes
Nice article. Also is a list of War Crimes
Nowhere on there is DU, cluster bombing civilians, or WP munitions. And it's a fairly long list running up until just a few years ago.
As you admit, there is no proof on DU. Cluster bombing civilians locations being used by the enemy is a fairly obvious one: if the area has been warned with enough notice, and the enemy uses those areas to launch attacks, those areas are no longer considered civilian. As far as the WP, that just strikes me as really strange. WP rounds have been used for as long as I can remember, by all parties in a conflict. Perhaps you mean using WP as AP rounds. That would make more sense. As I understand it, they are used in illumination rounds.
So I'm left with a conclusion that there are, in fact, no demonstrable war crimes by either side in this conflict. The Israelis claim Hezbollah is using civilian buildings as a shield, so they are bombing them. People wave their arms around and scream claims and various counter claims. I think it's fairly obvious that the Israelis have absolutely nothing to gain by publicly shelling civilians, so whatever is going on, it is either an accident, or deliberate based on legal reasons or secret ones. To prove your point, I believe it would be necessary to come up with some Israeli paperwork condoning the use of illegal weapons or tactics. Since you don't have any of these, very sorry about that.
The aside you made about those Hezbollah pictures was, quite frankly, sad. Any kind of weapon should not be in a town. Putting down the type of weapon system seems beneath you. You can do better than that.
So I asked you to come up with rules that would work for combatants aside from this particular conflict. You ignored that request. You pointed out your opinion that the US and Israel don't care about the rules of warfare. I asked for proof, and you failed to come up with that as well. You've made a lot of generalizations about the other commenters and your subject matter, but nothing solid that I can find.
In short, you seem to have a lot of opinions, but little in the way of reasoned argument. Hey -- we all have opinions. You could have just said "I have my opinions X, which I don't care to defend. I will, however, be glad to call you all names and put you down as much as possible"
That would have saved me a lot of time. Good luck with those opinions.
Daniel Markham #172:
justaguy wrote in #169
Well, you granted his wish.
FAO aMac.
If you have the time watch this doco. It is long but may help you understand my point regarding the viewpoint from which the US populace sees this conflict.
I have spent a lot of time in the States and I have family on both coasts. I was in Ct and NYC for an extended period at the start of the second intifada after having spent some time in the ME. I was gobsmacked by the onesidedness of US media coverage in general and I reserve a particular disgust at the utterly disgraceful racism and bile spewed from the Wall Street Journal. To say it angered me is an understatement.
Possibly the prime reason why we didn't move to the US. Seriously.
Sorry again. My bad.
Here it is
Daniel,
clearly you are not reading the conventions but something else. Just this morning the Israelis attacked another hospital. A war crime.
The US have attacked hospitals in Iraq. War crimes.
The bombing in Qana was a war crime.
The Israelis have military institutions and emplacements in their towns and cities.
You are not being balanced and you are basing your logic on a preconceived "them bad - we good" rotation. You have no knowledge that allows you to see the perspective of the combatants. The fact that you seem to think these photos are some great proof of evil misdeeds says more about your perspective than I can. The photos prove nothing.
UN Resolution 242 is 39 years old.
justaguy,
If the hospital is used to shelter combatants, it is not a war crime. If Hezbollah uses civilians or other protected classes to shield their combatant forces, then the crime is theirs, not the IDF.
Regardless of whether or not the IDF locates facilities in cities, Hezbollah is not firing their weapons into Israel with any legitimate targeting.
So it is clear that it is your propaganda that is without credibility.
Oh, and by the way, Lebanon has never met its obligations under UN 242 or 1559.
Wrong, the Conventions are quite clear regarding hospitals and civilian facilities.
1559 was being implemented. Israel has ignored 242 and 60 odd others.
But its always someoneone else's fault isn't it?
justaguy.
Then it is your contention that combatants may fire from hospitals without recourse from the other side?
Is that kind of like calling "safe!" when you're playing tag. 'Cause it don't make a lot of sense. With all due respect, you're smoking crack if you think that.
"You are not being balanced and you are basing your logic on a preconceived "them bad - we good" rotation"
Yes, yes. I understand. You make no counter argument and then say things like this. It is all becoming clear to me now. How could I have been so biased?
"The fact that you seem to think these photos are some great proof of evil misdeeds .."
BUZZER SOUNDS. Nope. Try again.
I said that it was beneath you to put down those photos. I still feel that way. I mean, if you're going to BS us, at least increase the quality of the horse manure you are shoveling.
I think it is different having a military installation in a designated area and driving around with missiles on the back of a Toyota. Strange as it may seem, that sounds much different to me. But I'm sure it is just my innate bias and "me good, you bad" mentality showing again. Here I thought I pointed out several instances of you ducking questions and having poorly formed and sourced arguments, and all along I was just showing how illogical and biased I must be! It's all so clear now.
I know I can't wait until we start building our new nuclear missile base/hospital system. Free health care AND a nuclear first strike capability! You can't beat that.
Justaguy,
Once again, you are making up stuff. I've actually read the Geneva Conventions and the Fourth Convention explicitly states that you are wrong.
1559 was not "being" implemented, and there are photographs of Hezbollah rallies with "1559" with a big red circle and slash through it. 242 required all parties to negotiate the end of the conflict not just Israel - something apologists for terrorists like yourself always conveniently forget.
Your falsehoods grew old long ago.
Considering all these new protections being found in "international law" for non-state combatants, it's obviously long overdue for the appearance of innovations such as Jewzbellah and USAmas.
"Art. 19. The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit and after such warning has remained unheeded."
4th Geneva Convention:http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Human_Rights/geneva1.html
Mark,
Justaguy is also ignorant of Article 28 of the same convention.
Robin Roberts
Ah yes, the intelligentsia has arrived. Surely the heavy artillery will arrive soon and you'll dust off "antisemitic" too. Are you 12?
Daniel...
"Then it is your contention that combatants may fire from hospitals without recourse from the other side?"
No.
There is no evidence that these hospitals were used as anything other than hospitals. The red cross office in Tyre was hit on the first day of the invasion. I think it is you smoking the crack that is US media bias and collective myopia.
I really don't care what you think, anyway. The civilian casualties are way beyond obscene now.
But, cheer them from afar by all means. You can pretend you're not a racist till the cows come home for mine. You'll broaden your mind an awful lot in that echochamber of yours.
Justaguy,
If you are attempting to demonstrate your own maturity, you have not succeeded with your attempt to call everything the IDF does a war crime and ignore Hezbollah's war crimes. Not to mention that your practice of crediting every claim of Israel as a lie and every claim of Hezbollah as truth makes your comments about evidence quite hilarious - not the least given Hezbollah's threats on journalists.
The ludicrous whacky nonsense about cluster bombs and DU are just the icing on the fabulist cake.
Justaguy, when you call people names and try to make a case to them for your views, you come off as entertainment. Why are you doing this? Do you not realize that people are getting a kick out of your reactions?
Well more fool you Robin. I've made no claims about the truth or otherwise of Hizbollah's statements. Have they made any?
You amply demonstrate my point. Thanks.
Tom Cohoe.
Glad to be of service. Enjoy your Budweiser. It really is beer.
I became lost. What was your point? Something about an echo chamber?
I think there were free beers in the echo chamber. That's all I got.
You got more than I did, Daniel.