Ali "Drizzt Do'Urden" Eteraz has started a new group blog at ProgressiveIslam.org. In terms of interesting excerpts, we'll start with this article:
"My explicit aim is to demonstrate how a smart Muslim neo-traditionalst (like TJ Winter for example) might go about using a Western critique of the West to advance Islamic Exceptionalism -- while simultaneously making his "Islamic Alternative" appear benign, even benevolent. I encourage you all to be very wary of this exceptionalist view point. I made exceptional effort to be faithful to the exceptionalist position so that all of us can see how subtly it works. Those familiar with my work might remember when I found it curious that neo-traditionalists like TJ Winter ofte like to rely on leftis Western philosophers (and leftist ideas). After you read this you'll see why neo-traditionalists love to use the West's left critique to advance their Islamic imperative."
An especially interesting observation given that Ali leans left himself. In terms of the new blog's intent, I offer this quoted bit from "A New Beginning":
"What I have found out is that activism is like a Sufi companionship exercise. You have to work in close quarters with a whole bunch of people you wouldn’t normally work with and the opportunity arises to indulge in the worst aspects of your soul every day. You are constantly presented with a choice about what kind of human being you want to be. It is not always easy to choose beauty over ugliness since self-righteousness gets in the way and confuses things so much."
He adds:
"This aesthetic description of activism was heretofore unheard of. I had known only the activism of shrill voices, of loud placards, of shock, of retaliation, of myopia, of what Nietzsche called the "will to stupidity." What? What was this? Activism of a beautiful sort? I found myself reaching out to Laury and a few months later one of my short stories appeared on this site. I loved from then on what I call her "husbandry of the spirit." She describes it as follows: [read the rest...]
The tragedy of it is that these days, I think David Blue is closer to the mark re: where all this is inevitably headed - and more spot-on still with his assessment channeling Budd from Kill Bill 2. To the extent that there is any chance of stepping off that train, the efforts of folks like Ali will be important. Which is why my heart continues to support him, even as my head tells me he ain't exactly got bettin' odds.
Thanks for the kind words, Joe.
And yes, I think I'm a better communicator channeling Bud than speaking for myself. (I should buy myself a hat like Bud's to blog in.)
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When I said we need to aim at less Islam, among other things, one ironic reply at another blog was: "Good luck with that." It was a valid point. The odds are not good.
But more Islam, even more moderate non-Arab Indonesian Islam, means more jihad, and more jihad means more of this. (link) not safe for work or anywhere else.
Societies where ten or twenty percent of the population thinks like that and when the occasion beckons acts like that, and the rest are more neutral though still defending Islam if it is affronted, are enough to force a gut check on unbelievers.
The way most people respond to that gut check is: they want to live. They don't want any bad consequences.
And societies where this is the penalty of being an ex-Muslim naturally never become formerly Muslim.
There's something worse than a future of pictures like that starring you or your relatives, and that's to submit.
In the face of jihad, I don't think hunkering down like a rabbit in a hail storm, just taking it, is good enough. I don't think it leads to a satisfactory future. I think it just leads to a habit of helplessness, which will be exploited. So I think we should fight boldly and actively on the side of prospective victims of jihad and against people like the jihadis in these pictures.
Either Islam knocks this stuff off completely, or it stops expanding and stands aside for the advance of freedom, or we submit, or we need to win a war to the knife. Those are the options.
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A useful progressive Islam would end jihad, except for voluntary internal struggles against one's own sinful tendencies.
Let me say to Ali Eteraz now, sincerely and with no irony: good luck with that.
If by working within the system, you bring about a state of affairs where nobody ever has to face the jihad gut check, where nobody has to bend their beliefs or actions to conform to the menace and fear of Islam, then that's great. That would spare us an awful fight.
Note that the source of several of those pictures is reputed to be of the Dayak troubles, and others' provenances are disputed in other ways.
Nonetheless:
Pretty much, excluding outliers such as "All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace", the technological singularity, and the like.
A legitimate risk not mentioned in that list is the "race to the bottom" between Islamofascism and the other kind(s). Pace the "usual suspects", it's far from certain how that is proceeding or will turn out. I know what my money (and effort -- if it comes to it, my life, my fortune and my sacred honor, corny though that might sound) is on. But hey, I'm just a chickenhawk, right?
#2 from Nortius Maximus: "Note that the source of several of those pictures is reputed to be of the Dayak troubles, and others' provenances are disputed in other ways."
Thanks, Nortius Maximus. I didn't know the provenance of the pictures was disputed, otherwise I would not have used the link. Nothing justifies being loose with facts. And if some of the pictures are of "the Dayak troubles" and I had known it, I would not have omitted to mention Islam's war on native religions.
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#2 from Nortius Maximus: "Nonetheless:
Either Islam knocks this stuff off completely, or it stops expanding and stands aside for the advance of freedom, or we submit, or we need to win a war to the knife. Those are the options.
#2 from Nortius Maximus: "Pretty much, excluding outliers such as "All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace", the technological singularity, and the like."
Or we get creamed by a dinosaur killer asteroid, or someone in a bio-warware lab finally finds a universal cure for metabolism and in a fit of pride releases it, or etc.. Yes, excluding such outliers.
I'll take this opportunity to edit my statement for greater clarity, which I am always seeking. Option four "or we need to win a war to the knife" should be "or we need to win a war, which given the nature of jihad will be a war to the knife." It is not that we need a war to the knife, and we need to win it. We need to win, on any terms possible. It is the nature of our enemies and the natures of Islam, sharia and jihad that make this a war to the knife, regardless of our wishes or actions.
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#2 from Nortius Maximus: "A legitimate risk not mentioned in that list is the "race to the bottom" between Islamofascism and the other kind(s). Pace the "usual suspects", it's far from certain how that is proceeding or will turn out."
We don't know what will come. But I think Daniel Pipes is right on Muslim Europe. (link) Current trends suggest Islamization will happen, for Europeans seem to find it too strenuous to have children, stop illegal immigration, or even diversify their sources of immigrants. Instead, they prefer to settle unhappily into civilizational senility.
A comeback of European fascisms looks likely, but under new management, and not with light skin and fair colors and antique costumes. That is, you'll get a European Ba'athism, and similar things. Pro-Muslim, Jew hating policies will make increasing electoral sense. Current fascist parties will increasingly accept that "if you can't beat them, join them." Being outside the taboo of white guilt, Muslim fascism has no natural enemies in Europe, and the great advantage of letting the remaining old Europeans embrace their conquerors and return to certain old national traditions at the same time. Now would be a good time for Jews still living in Europe to get out.
Instead of saying "this will happen" I could say "this is already starting," but I'm too lazy to look up all the links, include them, and then argue their validity in a thread that is not about a new European Fascism.
I downloaded hundreds of pictures from the Beslan massacre, and studied them intently for a long time. I studied not just the usual pictures, but everything that could then be found online. Those pictures helped me finally to internalize what sort of thing Islam is, in relation to us in the modern world, and its ultimate intentions toward us.
That school became a Muslim death camp in miniature. Muslim martyrs played out with real parents, teachers and children a demonstration of what fate is in store for our future generations where the dread shadow of Islam falls. For those who can't take in their endless statements of supremacist religious hatred, the Muslim martyrs painted a picture - in the blood of children. This for mummy, and this for teacher, and this for the son and this for the daughter, on the first day of school. Day by day, with cruelty and harrowing thirst, to the dreadful end: This! This! This! Get it, you stupid infidel morons? This!!!
In general, we didn't get it. Things continued much as before.
At that point, I abandoned a good few false thoughts. Among them: there is no pent up force of Europe and or including Russia, no mighty spirit to be called on if the need is great enough. Stop hoping for it - and stop worrying about it too, if you were worrying.
As for a race to the bottom, not only don't I believe it will happen, I don't care. Vladimir Putin could have told all Muslims to leave Russia and that point, in a "trail of tears," a forced relocation, and I would have said: "Protect Russia's children. Do what it takes Comrade Putin, but never again allow that."
Instead, a petty European bureaucrat, a Mr. Bot, served Mr. Putin an insolent "please explain" as to how such a thing could happen in Russia, and Vladimir Putin pronounced the comment offensive, which it was.
Remember the scene in March of the Penguins (2005) (link) where a hawk descends on the penguin chicks, and the parents do ... nothing? The difference between the old Europeans and those penguins is that the penguins will probably still be making their marches after the old Europeans are gone. Predator satiation is a valid strategy, as long as it's just one predator and there is never any shortage of chicks to abandon.
Of course many dirty, discreditable and disgusting things will happen as various elements in old Europe panic violently, and add shame to their doom. But this has no practical significance. And Russia will continue to fight its disgusting war, but given that most Russian conceptions end in abortion and the fertility rate of Russians is half that needed to replace the people in each generation, it doesn't matter.
That's the future for us all, if Islam does not call off this fight, and we are weak.
So let me say to Ali Eteraz, who wants to promote a relatively progressive Islam, again, sincerely and with no irony: good luck with that.
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#2 from Nortius Maximus: "I know what my money (and effort -- if it comes to it, my life, my fortune and my sacred honor, corny though that might sound) is on. But hey, I'm just a chickenhawk, right?"
Well said, Nortius Maximus.
Me too. 9/11th Fighting Keyboardists, Sacred White Feather division. (link) (link)
If everything we do and say has a piffling weight, I think that's OK, as long as it's on the right side of the scales.
The same thing goes for Ali Eteraz. You haven't heard me mock the scale of what he's doing in relation to the problem, and you never will.
Yes, David, the major courses of identifiable other-sorts-of-fascism risk do seem to fall in three tributaries:
I thought I'd thought of another course that was relevant to the "race to the (fascist) bottom", but I'm not thinking of it now. If it comes up, will post.
I share your nonsarcastic good-luck wish for Ali Eteraz and those taking similar (dare I call them "progressive?" :) ) tacks. Less suffering would be good. But not if the only alternative to suffering is submission for those outside the Dar-al-Islam.
#4 from Nortius Maximus at 11:55 am on Nov 20, 2006
#4 from Nortius Maximus: "The we-become-(worse-than-)our-enemies-by-adopting-their-methods-to-fight-'em road much talked about by those I have called "the usual suspects" -- Koskids und so weiter."
I think that's literally impossible. What we are fighting is Islam, the system. The methods and mindsets of our enemies are authentically derived from, justified by and embedded in Islamic sacred sources, the Koran, the life of the Prophet, Islamic religious laws, history and tradition - with updates from the parts of the Western tradition that are palatable to Islam (in other words Adolph Hitler and not Abraham Lincoln), but really intact and culturally pure at root.
Unless you join them, you don't become them. We are not going to take up practices such as honor killings and female genital mutilation, to make our female population breeding machines, silenced scapegoats, and twisted enforcers of morality surgically deprived of some part of their capacity to enjoy sex. Yet this system in its total effect is part of the demographic attack that does most of Islam's conquering in Europe. The method, the moral and sexual horror and Islam are one. It's not a disease some Kate or Natasha or Sarah with a sniper rifle can get by fighting too hard.
But if you don't fight hard enough to beat Islam - consider the fate of Buddhism in Afghanistan or Zoroastrianism in Iran. Not beating Islam when that was necessary leads to 100% Islam.
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#4 from Nortius Maximus: "I thought I'd thought of another course that was relevant to the "race to the (fascist) bottom", but I'm not thinking of it now. If it comes up, will post."
Simple, and it's already happening on a tiny scale in Russia: mafiyas.
Doesn't sound like fascism? People forget how much Italian fascism at least was simple "boss and brute squad" thuggery.
In the classic formula "protection" means only protection from the mafiya itself, but organized crime will sell anything it can readily obtain for which there is a lucrative market, and this can include protection from other sources of criminal violence, and active violence in driving out dangerous new rivals for territory and control of profitable rackets.
Something like this has been seen on an even pettier scale in Sydney too, where the 'Bra Boys (that's short for Maroubra Boys, not, you know, funny boys), an openly criminal gang, won acceptance because as long as they dominate Maroubra Beach (and the drug trade there) it would never occur to them to stop their fellow Aussies surfing. Culturally, that's just not how they think. Swimming = good. Surfing = good. Chicks in skimpy bikinis = good. "Skips" (Aussies) != hateful.
If you run a corner shop, and Muslim neighbors will drive you off because "this is a Muslim area now," but plain old fashioned thugs will let you do business as long as they get their share, who looks better? Besides, real cultural differences, what might be called full-blooded multi-culturalism, makes all that Hollywood "honest townsfolk united against the gangs" stuff unlikely.
Of course all this reflects a failure of politically correct or just corrupt and negligent policing to provide safety for populations in the way of Islam.
It's also a losing option in the long run, because racketeers don't have the commitment or the demographics to hold turf against jihadists indefinitely. When the going gets tough, thugs turn tail, and never mind who promised what to who. It's the nature of the beast.
Though a losing option, or at best a delaying option, thuggery is part of a race to the moral bottom.
Anyway, this discussion of the West's repulsive and ineffective responses to actually existing Islam and the daily pressure it exerts is taking us far away from the refined, reformed, theoretical kind of Islam we should be discussing in this thread.
Are there any particular Readers Diaries you like?
Me? No. But then I'm hardly the target audience.
For a religion, for which the bulk of its practitioners seem stuck in the middle ages, perhaps "progressive" isn't the right term.
#6 from Gabriel: "For a religion, for which the bulk of its practitioners seem stuck in the middle ages, perhaps "progressive" isn't the right term."
It may be a fine label for the Islam that exists in the dreams of Ali Eteraz and his friends.
If you present your dreams well, and enough dreamers agree with you, and they prove ready willing and able to beat down the fanatics who disagree, then this becomes the truth about how your religion is now.
This is how the religion game is played. With the exception of some beliefs the origins of which are lost in the misty horizon of pre-history, everything starts out as the customs and beliefs of a piffling minority or the laughable claims a single eccentric, and it all remains a pitiful departure from the common sense of society at large, indefinitely. Till you win, at which point it becomes orthodoxy.
It's fine to talk about the "progressive" religion of the pharaohs if you like, or the modest, progressive and peaceful religion of your Prophet, as long as it's clear that what you are making is some kind of presentation of undocumented personal gnosis, or some kind of normative or theological appeal, rather than claiming to be doing history or archaeology. Because in the latter case you would need to confront the textual, archaeological and historical evidence to the contrary; but if you're just dreaming, that is trying to shape the present and the unwritten future, then dream on, and let nobody tell you it ain't so.
There is no future for a "progressive Islam" in the current Islamic world. Nor is there any hope for it in the liberal West, where radical Islam has a hard-core cadre that operates almost undisturbed, plus a huge cheering section on the left. The only hope for it is in the survival of Afghanistan and Iraq, where it can develop alongside democracy. In fact, those countries might hold the key to the survival of Islam.
#8 from Glen Wishard: "There is no future for a "progressive Islam" in the current Islamic world. Nor is there any hope for it in the liberal West, where radical Islam has a hard-core cadre that operates almost undisturbed, plus a huge cheering section on the left."
Not to disagree, but why should Ali Eteraz accept that as the final word? Who is paying him to give up?
I think he's right: this is what he thinks and he might as well go for it.
So good luck to him.
The guy is doomed because success in the modern world demands basically no religion taken seriously.
So either Muslims stop being Muslims, or they try and destroy the Modern World.
Think China is willing to let the Uighurs become their own Muslim state? Submit to Indonesia and Malaysia? Or Vietnam for that matter? Or Japan? Or the Hindus of India?
Russia is a lost case, under Putin, but who comes after him? You could certainly rally Russians on a "get rid of Muslims" platform and make it happen.
Certainly Poland and Hungary and Bulgaria and Serbia and Romania are not looking with pleasure at the new Islamic rulers.
What happens when Morocco claims Spain as "Al Andalus" and stages it's own razzias?
There is NO ZERO ZILCH outside pressure forcing Muslims to modernize or face destruction ala Perry's Black Fleet in Tokyo Bay.
Hence, every nation that has the determination and means to defend modernity will end up simply nuking Muslims into oblivion. At a glance that would include the US, China, India, Vietnam, Japan, Australia, and probably Poland.
The Netherlands is considering a burqua ban.
Identity politics are identity politics. You can gain considerable political traction by pandering to identity politics for white people in still-majority white nations, centered around opposition against Islam. Le Pen's actions are not sustainable since the whole nature of rightist parties is identity politics.
I so deeply wish that Eteraz's fervent dreams for his chosen religion come true. I have given up on the possibility of Islam many times -- too many jihadists, too close for comfort to where I live -- but when I read Ali, I become hopeful again.
Spiritualism materialism underlies much of "moderate" Islam, such as it is. Ali, for the most part, escapes this. However, it is that same foundation which has given Islam its driving force, so it become hard to reconcile the contradictions.
And the MSM has succeeded only too well in implanting a deep unease in all of us re Islam while at the same time accusing of hate crimes anyone who raises concerns about the violence, mayhem and murder done in the name of a loftier goal.
It is enough to make one wall-eyed. In fact, it is a good example of the ways in which schizogenic behavior is transmitted generationally...
I wish Ali well in this new group. I still think about his autobiographical stories of his childhood in a harsh, unforgiving Pakistani madrassah...
They are not breeding the way they used to in Iran.
In fact Iran faces a demograpic collapse in the same time frame that Europe does.
#10 Jim,
You are forgetting computers and cell phones.
They are not breeding in Iran. Who is not breeding in Iran. Probably the less radical families. The radicals win again.
hi there joe,
just wanted to let you know that i'm not part of progressive islam. i left that site a long time ago.
my new venture is at http://eteraz.org/
i sent you an email about it
"The guy is doomed because success in the modern world demands basically no religion taken seriously."
I get a good laugh out of that every time you say it.
It works on the same level as the 'Noone I know voted for Nixon' pronouncement.
#15 from eteraz: "just wanted to let you know that i'm not part of progressive islam. i left that site a long time ago."
Thanks.
What a fiasco this thread is.