Winds of Change.NET: A Very Victorian War

April 5, 2003

A Very Victorian War

by Trent Telenko at April 5, 2003 3:38 PM

We seem to be fighting a very "Victorian war," with the Iraqis playing the role of Kipling's "Fuzzie Wuzzies." The reports I am seeing here and here say we are killing armed Iraqis in ground combat at ratios of between 200 and 400 to one.

For example, the 3rd Infantry Division took the bridge over the Euphraties with a single mechanized infantry battalion (two Bradley companies, one Abrams) from two battalions of Iraqi infantry, one Fedayeen and one Republican Guard, killing them all with not a single KIA. And this was in an urban area!

The following is an e-mail Bill O'Reilly got from a commander in the 3rd Indantry Division:

"The Third (31D) is making history here. In the past 48 hours, we have destroyed two (Iraqi) divisions, and six other divisions decided not to fight or have formally capitulated. Of course, this is never reported in the news. I do daily air recon in a Blackhawk escorted by Apaches, and we have probably killed close to 10,000 (Iraqi soldiers). We are continuously sniped at and receive periodic mortar fire. Bottom line, they shoot -- they die. Every American soldier (here) is getting a chance to engage and kill the enemy.

"Iraq has these maniacs, death squad guys called Saddam Feddyen, DGS forces, IIS, and Ba'ath Party forces that we spend most of our day killing. They continuously make suicidal charges at our tanks, brads (fighting vehicles) and checkpoints. We are happy to send them to hell. You would not believe the carnage. Imagine body parts about knee deep, with hundreds of (Iraqi) vehicles burning, occupants inside. We fill up trucks with body parts daily.

"The plan is going exactly as scripted. The news is full of s---. We have almost total control. Don't know how much longer the division can keep up this pace, but we are prepared to do it."

The British seem to have racking up similar impressive kill ratios early on over running the Al Faw penninsula, but they are not hitting the numbers of suicidal Fedayeen the USMC and 3rd ID have in the dash for Baghdad. Point in fact, they are more afraid of American "Friendly fire" than Iraqis. They have lost more troops to American planes than to Iraqis and are flying big Union Jacks in an attempt to ward them off.

Please note that the 10,000 the 3rd ID commander estimates his division has killed does not include Iraqis who have died in air strikes that are not close air support. We have no idea how many have been killed in those.

Concerns Glenn Reynolds mentioned of Allies killing "too many" Iraqis may be well founded.

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Comments

#1 from David Foster at 5:03 pm on Apr 05, 2003

Actually, Kipling spoke highly of the fighting skills of the Fuzzy-Wuzzies:

So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your 'ome in the Soudan;
You're a pore benighted 'eathen but a first-class fightin' man;
An' 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, with your 'ayrick 'ead of 'air --
You big black boundin' beggar -- for you broke a British square!

#2 from bkw at 5:36 pm on Apr 05, 2003

not to be callous or anything, but wouldn't you rather have the "dedicated" come out and die now, instead of melting into the populace to wage eternal guerilla war on us/them later?

#3 from Sandy P. at 5:57 pm on Apr 05, 2003

If we don't kill them, the Iraqis will.

#4 from Keith Aaron at 6:12 pm on Apr 05, 2003

Just wondering how accurate that email to Bill O'Reilly really is. Does anyone know how a commander would be able to send email at this time? It seems odd to me, but maybe it's not.

Also, how did we get a hold of this message? I'm new here, does Bill O'Reilly post? Is it the real Bill O'Reilly or billoreilly@hotmail.com?

Thanks,
Keith

#5 from Trent Telenko at 6:21 pm on Apr 05, 2003

Keith,

One of the links I put at the beginning of my post is a link to the Bill O'Reilly article that e-mail came from.

#6 from Charles Rostkowski at 7:12 pm on Apr 05, 2003

Bill OReily read a portion of this email on his show last night. In Culture and Carnage, Victor Hansen pointed out that these kill ratios would always occur when a western disciplined army met an undisciplined, despotic opponent (See Lapeto or Cortez in Mexico or Rourke's Drift or Tet). This really is the cakewalk Rumsfeld was supposed to have predicted. Having read Hansen's book, I had no doubt that Rumsfeld would be right. Last night on Fox I heard an officer in the field say that his unit had been studying the tactics and battle order of the Medina Division for the past six months, so we had these guys pretty well figured out long before we hit the ground. The talk of these kill ratios, finally out of the bag, must be driving the NYT and the academics nuts.

#7 from AST at 9:16 pm on Apr 05, 2003

Does anybody remember the bodycount reports that came out everyday during the Vietnam war? I think that it's pretty hard to get accurate figures, and all it does is rev up the Anti-war crowd. How about the figures on how many have surrendered and saved their lives?

This is a totalitarian state we're taking down. It places very little value on human lives. There were millions killed on both sides in the war between Iraq and Iran. I am not persuaded that our men are bloodthirsty killers. We have to win this, and rid the country of this infection. How many people have died in North Korea because we were sick of war?

#8 from Donald Sensing at 1:08 am on Apr 06, 2003

The Zulu army that fought the British at Rorke's Drift was not despotic and it certainly was not undisciplined. The Zulus were well trained, superbly disciplined and led and intelligently organized.

#9 from Samuel Tai at 1:35 am on Apr 06, 2003

Reverend Sensing,

I respectfully disagree. The Zulus at Rourke's Drift had abominable fire discipline.

#10 from Joe Katzman at 6:14 am on Apr 06, 2003

It always takes a while for an army to master new weapons. In WW2, ther French tried to use tanks as movable bunkers - missed the point entirely, of course, except for this maverick general named DeGaulle who actually beat the Germans in a couple of battles.

The Zulus had rifles, but were not given the time to translate the capability into doctrine. Like so many armies before them, they simply took the new technology and adapted it to a doctrine they already knew. At Rourke's Drift and elsewhere, that didn't serve them well. That was their fault, not their discipline or leadership or battlefield organization.

Samuel has a better point re: despotism, which may have slowed the Zulus' adaptation process to using the newer weapons en masse.

#11 from Steven Den Beste at 10:31 am on Apr 06, 2003

AP reports:

Between 2,000 and 3,000 Iraqi fighters were killed as the 3rd Infantry Division moved through southwestern Baghdad, U.S. Central Command spokesman Jim Wilkinson said.

The raid Saturday was the first incursion into the Iraqi capital, and was designed to send a message to both the Iraqi leadership and civilians that coalition forces could move into the city at will, said Air Force Maj. Gen. Gene Renuart. It took troops on a 25-mile run through a corner of Baghdad.

#12 from Dave at 3:05 pm on Apr 06, 2003

In an information age you wonder why people waste their time sowing misinformation. A Russian general yesterday reported that the coalition troops were in disaray and about to colapse.
Another Russian site gave info supposedly gleaned from radio intercepts, inflating our loss of life many times what is officialy reported in the U.S., although nothing near the Iraqi casualty numbers. The Iraqis themselves must be on L.S.D. with the reports they try to publish. Let's hope that things continue on schedule. The more horrificly this goes, the less likely we are to have to repeat it again any time soon. Publicize it, show pictures of their dead, their mourning survivors. Let the world know, negotiate and settle, don't fight.

#13 from BarCodeKing at 4:06 pm on Apr 06, 2003

Another thing to mention is that the Iraqis will KNOW that they have been defeated when this is over, and that it is only through our kindness and mercy that Iraqi civilian casualties are negligible compared to the tanker-load of Whup-Ass™ that has been opened on the Iraqi military forces. This may make them more malleable when the time comes to de-Ba'athify their society and put them on the road to secular democracy.

#14 from Trent Telenko at 5:30 pm on Apr 06, 2003

I keep running accross reports like this one from the Independent (UK):

"His cameraman, Mal James, filmed what appeared to be sporadic attacks by rocket-propelled grenades and dilapidated pick-up trucks being rammed against the advancing tanks. Scattered along the dual carriageway were the smoking, sometimes flaming, remains of vehicles already destroyed by the convoy. "Some of these vehicles that have come at us were clearly civilian vehicles," said Kelly, in the report, which was later relayed by most news networks. "In those cases, we saw warning shots fired, the operators of the armoured vehicles waving their hands saying 'go back, go back', and they returned to where they were coming from uninjured."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=394480

It is clear that many Iraqi casualties are from their fanatics committing "Suicide by Abrams" as they literally drive pick-ups right up under the treads of our tanks and other armored fighting vehicles.

"De-Ba'athification" of Iraq is not going to be an issue if Saddam's bully boys keep pulling this stunt over and over.

#15 from fuck you ass holes at 6:50 pm on Apr 06, 2003

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#16 from fuck you ass holes at 6:51 pm on Apr 06, 2003

#17 from barry at 7:41 pm on Apr 06, 2003

MURDER?
No, It's varmint extermination and eradication.
This news gives me a hard on OOOhhhhrrraaaaaa!

Kill every son of allah (or daughter) that stands up to fight, kill them ruthlessly! when you do remember that incident on 9/11 remember the woman who jumped from the top to her death, remember the stewardess who had their throats slashec with box cutters, remember the POW's and the executed Troopers from the 507th, and slay them, smite them, kill them.

#18 from zombyboy at 9:08 pm on Apr 06, 2003

I submit that this is a just war. Therefor, the murder charge is something that I'll ignore. I am thrilled that the friendly losses have been so low, that the cost has been so light.

That said, I refuse to glory in the deaths of that many Iraqis. The world will be a better place when this is done, but deaths on that scale should not be celebrated. Most of those soldiers are not evil--not by a long shot.

Let's celebrate the fact that we are winning and doing so quickly. Let's celebrate the fact that, hopefully, the reward for this will be a safer world and a free Iraq.

Let's not celebrate death, though. This war is, as any just war is, a tragic necessity.

#19 from Andrew X at 9:32 pm on Apr 06, 2003

Hey F.Y.A.H. -

What are you trying to say? I'm missing the point.

#20 from Tim at 12:50 am on Apr 07, 2003

Zombyboy is right - the war is just, but we shouldn't relish the enemy deaths. Is it necessary they die? No doubt about that. F.Y.A.H. is not only factually wrong - he is morally wrong. And to the extend our guys are engaging Fedayeed Saddams or other terrorist-related fighters - so much the better. After all, our guys are both the cheese and the mousetrap - and Iraq will be better if there are fewer rather than more of these Ba'athist thugs left after the war.

#21 from brian at 1:19 am on Apr 07, 2003

F.Y.A.H. - Thanks for providing a great example of the "peace" movement in action. Not only stupid, but totally ineffective in making your case (presuming you even have one you could articulate), and morally bankrupt as well. Good show.

#22 from Samuel Tai at 3:03 am on Apr 07, 2003

I second Tim's and zombyboy's sentiments. Let all the Islamic movements try to pile on in Iraq. Better they be out in the open, in desert terrain, where we can see them and continue to maintain these kill ratios.

This is just the last gasp of a discredited philosphy of the world. Just like the Japanese learned to their sorrow in WW2, suicide tactics and spiritual purity are no match for superior firepower and discipline. All these can do is to prolong the inevitable.

Hell, it's better that Al Jazeera continue to spew their lies. That way, more of the enemy will lose their heads and come on the battlefield with no plan, no training, and no hope.

#23 from Joe Katzman at 4:04 am on Apr 07, 2003

Actually, Zombyboy, most of the hostiles being faced now in Iraq most certainly ARE evil people. The rest abandoned the battlefield long ago.

Going up against an Abrams in a pickup is a legitimate choice in war, but it's kind of like trying to ram a full dump truck in a Mini - only one party gets hurt. Since the pickup drivers all seem to be the same people who murdered, raped and terrorized their way across Iraq for the last 25 years or so, I can't say I'm shedding any tears. If Hezbollah, Hamas et. al. wish to join this little party too, that's also fine by me. Just makes for fewer crazed killers to bother civilized people later.

The one part of Samuel's comment I can't agree with is that the philosophy is discredited. That hasn't happened yet - but if Iran throws out its Islamic theocracy in a popular uprising, that could change.

#24 from Trent Telenko at 5:04 am on Apr 07, 2003

F.Y.A.H.,

MURDER?

Nope. Try pest control.

But please do keep up your primal screaming. It will help re-elect George W. Bush and get a filibuster proof Republican Senate in 2004.

#25 from Trent Telenko at 5:07 am on Apr 07, 2003

F.Y.A.H.

Read the article here and weep.

#26 from zombyboy at 5:52 am on Apr 07, 2003

Joe,
I can't agree with you on that. I think there are still a tremendous number of soldiers who are frightened for the safety of their families, frightened for their own lives, or simply believing that we'll leave again and let Saddam begin his bloody retribution.

Even if you are right, though, I still can't feel good about that many deaths. I still can't feel that good about this:

You would not believe the carnage. Imagine body parts about knee deep, with hundreds of (Iraqi) vehicles burning, occupants inside. We fill up trucks with body parts daily.

I've been, and will continue to be a vocal supporter of the President, the war effort, the military, and our allies. This doesn't mean I feel good inside when I think of that many people dying for a stupid cause. Certainly, they are making a choice and bear that ultimate responsibility for what happens on the battlefield.

I still pity them.

I do agree that I would be thrilled if every damned terrorist in the world decided to join the fight and martyr themselves for their cause. But I think that you're fooling yourself if you think that those are the only types that are left out on the battlefield.

I also agree that the movement hasn't been discredited. I think we did throw a bit of a surprise their way by reacting without the UN, reacting without many of our normal allies, and having the balls to carry through with a war when they didn't believe that we would. Still, there's a long way to go before the war against terrorism is completed.

Again, though, even if you are 100% correct, I still won't feel good about the dead. I won't shed any tears, but I won't applaud their deaths, either. In my mind it remains tragic necessity.

By the way, this is a great site--it's quickly become one of my favorite reads.

#27 from zombyboy at 5:54 am on Apr 07, 2003

Trent--
A filibuster-proof Republican Senate.

Ahh, to dream a beautiful dream.

#28 from Devil's Advocate at 9:31 pm on Apr 09, 2003

Referring to the enemy as non-human (varmints, pests, hostiles) is a time honored method of killing humans without feeling bad about it.

I hope those of you who relish in the avenging of 9/11 realize that the Saddam regime had nothing to do with that. The Baath party was SECULAR, having nothing to do with Islam. So you can't even say we are striking back at Fundamentalist Muslims.

But, I suppose they all look alike on TV, and killing one rag head is just as good as killing another.

#29 from The Reaper at 10:43 pm on Jul 21, 2004

Time to meet the Reaper whom is in laid upon the mantles to the death throne! Down with the praisers whom have thirsted for the blood of those who are of the innocent.

Time to meet the Reaper and barry that shit worn crown a place so high that it never comes back down!

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