Hey, don't diss the Saegheh.

It's really, er, cute.

You can't see much of the plane from the photo above, but this wikipedia photo clearly shows the plane to be an F-5. Pretty scary, if this were f--king 1965.

Sticking an extra fin on an F-5 and calling it a domestically manufactured 4th generation fighter shows that the Islamists are not only dumber than the communists, but even less artistic.

Spook86 at In From the Cold

Spook86 had a similar assessment that this is a converted F-5. Perhaps he read Joe's article.

RBT

*****

Today's Howler

Iran has "unveiled" its first "locally manufactured" fighter aircraft, nicknamed the "Saegheh." Reading this AP account, you'd think Tehran had achieved some sort of technological breakthrough. Here's a sample:

[...]

Here's the real scoop on the Saegheh. It's nothing more than a re-manufactured U.S. F-5 (which has been in Iran's inventory for more than 30 years), with a second vertical stabilizer and a slightly modified nose. The aircraft may also have a more capable air intercept radar, although nothing on the scale of early-model F-15s or F-16s, let alone the F-18 or F-22.

[...]

Yet, the MSM laps up every PR release from Iran like a kitten drinking warm milk. And that leads me to a larger point, concerning Iran's recent displays of military force--events that have received extensive play in the western press. Some of these displays are little more than public relations stunts; I received a tip the other day (that I'm still trying to verify) that a recent broadcast of an Iranian missile test was (in fact) footage of a Chinese launch from a few months ago. True, Iran is trying to upgrade its military capabilities, but much of Tehran's military remains poorly equipped and marginally trained. Their recent embrace of "asymmetric warfare" is, in part, an admission that their conventional forces are hopelessly broken and no match for a superior military foe.

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I heard a nasty rumor that the next version of the Shafagh will include a racing stripe, obviously making it the fastest plane in the world.

"The official FARS news agency article that touted the new aircraft as "more difficult to pick up on the radar systems compared with the normal version due to its higher maneuverability" was especially funny. The Saegeheh must be something special to be able to out-maneuver radar beams traveling near the speed of light"

Its kind of heartening that the Iranians seemingly dont even understand the principles involved.

Heck, I think I've seen civilian owned F5/T38 airframes.

BTW, they also have a missile called Saegheh, so they can't even think up original names.

I'm trying hard not to hate these ayatollah ass munchers, but they're so annoying.

I'd tell them to stick to what they know, but what they know is how to hang teenage girls, and they can't even do that right.

Should send an F-22 to buzz their presidential palace. Maybe drop some leaflets on their super-jet airfields. We need to send these guys a lesson, because the scary thing is they may actually believe their own B.S.

SPQR,

That's possible. John Travolta owns a T-38, for instance.

I heard a nasty rumor that the next version of the Shafagh will include a racing stripe, obviously making it the fastest plane in the world.

Speed holes.

Joe,
Then I think we can safely say that the Iranian air force ranks above John Travolta in capability.

You guys are missing the point.

Iran does not have to be better than US, or even close. Heck they'll threaten and intimidate with nukes and the Dems will ... run away. Fast.

Once that happens (the US runs away from the Gulf under Iranian threat) Iran need only be better than the Saudis, Omanis, Iraqis and Kuwaitis. Who are even less able than the Iranians.

Yes absolutely this could work; but only if the Iranians refrain from attacking the US with WMDs which I think they will not be able to hold themselves back from doing so. They see obvious weakness and don't understand that another attack will sweep away Dems and the Media and lead to some sort of unity government determined to simply wipe out Iran. Ala Dresden.

Germany and Japan are peaceful today because an entire set of generations of young men were slaughtered in WWII and profoundly altered those nations. Leaving mostly kids, women, and older men.

What we have here is an F-5 derivative. If it goes into battle against just about anything in the U.S. inventory, things will generally end badly for it, although I seem to recall that the F-5 used to at least play the big dogs tough in exercises. However, most of what air forces do is ground attack, and an F-5 derivitive with PGMs, even first generation PGMs, could create trouble -- particularly if the Iranians use some of the $200 million a day they've been raking in from oil sales to build them in large numbers. At the very least, this means that countries faced with the prospect of going to war with Iran will need to make sure they establish air superiority at the outset and keep it. Since this seems to be standard operating procedure for the U.S. there isn't too much to worry about here -- provided we don't get careless or lazy or arrogant.

Mark, do bear in mind that racing stripes only help you go faster on the straightaways.

I think it's something to do with the speed lines.

I think we can safely say that the Iranian air force ranks above John Travolta in capability.

I don't know about that. He also has a 707, and even a daughter named Jet. And he's an Alpha Theta Omega something-or-other with the Scientologists, and those guys are supposed to be able to catch missiles with their butt cheeks.

Glen: I think I might have seen some of that action at the Folsom Street Fair. Were those fellers Scientologists? ...Who knew?

Uh, Glen Wishard, you obviously never saw him in Battlefield Earth!

I think you guys are underestimating irany air force but its fun I guess. There pilots saw good action in the f-14..And there cobra pilots where pretty damn good! Also I think they have a big ass missile called the shahob.

Good luck to the Iranians. All of the disparaging comments made in these columns reflect graphically the continuing American arrogance & dismissal of other nations interests & capabilities, & illustrate the widespread ignorance of what purports to be an educated nation which either does not know & understand what their nation is doing to the rest of the world, based on lies & deception- or doesn't care!
The Iranians can be a pretty nasty bunch- especially the Islamic fundamentalists; but so can a bunch of Christian fundamentalists led by a certifiable idiot!
I hope that the Saegheh is a success & helps to thwart American aims in the Middle East

go iran . iran is advancing technologicaly so why is every one angry . why dont u leave them alone . do u really want to fight every one . u make wars all over the world just to make money .iran never harm america , what do u want from it .. oh iran has the third largest oil reserves in the world. this is why america wants to atack iran .

Do I detect some category errors?

I should take most of the above comment were made by some American teenagers in a Pub, exception to (George Lorimer's & Khalil), please guys do yourselves a favour and slap yourselves in the face as hard as you possibly can to wake yourselves up. Just listen to yourselves, please try to think, I know it’s hard to start with. This is the only way to help yourselves.

James,
I sincerely think that it is you (& the rest of the arrogant commentators) who need to slap yourselves in the face & think - instead of blindly believing what the men who pull george bush's strings tell you.
Think what they've told you in order to justify their actions in the middle east:-
W.M.D , Iraq's links to AL Qaeda under Saddam Hussein & it's involvement in 9/11, Iraq's purchase of uranium from Niger - ALL now known to be lies (known to be so even by the mass of redneck ignorant USA citizens , who certainly display evidence of being unable to think for themselves), terrorising the iraqis into democracy,physically & sexually abusing Iraqis (in exactly the same way that Saddam did.)
What a wonderful freedom loving nation you display yourselves to be!
Please realise that other countries DON'T want your domination & interference in their affairs & are entitled to their own development without needing your approval.

However much ridicule they are getting you still gotta admire that they have actually TRIED and have produced something that actually flies even though there are strict arms embargos and financial sanctions in iran. My iranian friend told me that becuase of this iran has become pretty much self sufficient and makes all its own products - from motorbikes to cars to jet fighters! If this is what sanctions do to Iran no wonder Ahmadinejad doesnt care!

Remember the 7 day war with Israel?
Well, I don't think that this is going to happen again if they produce enough of these.

I'm detecting the definite whiff of elite Republican Guard from some of the comments here....

I'll take this seriously just to see where it goes.

Imagine there was something really great about these planes. It wouldn't matter for a US attack this year or next year because they can't possibly have enough of them by then to matter. So they're no threat to our possible war of aggression.

How would they matter? If for some reason we withdrew, iran and probably israel will be the only nations there that make their own warplanes. They can make them at whatever rate they're willing to invest in. Nations that buy their warplanes have to negotiate at length about that and face limits in numbers.

Now suppose that these planes are far inferior to the planes we sell other nations. Could they still matter? I dunno. There was a time that we had an argument about inferior soviet technology. Some of us thought the russians had a sophisticated strategy that involved making so many inferior planes etc that they could overwhelm us by sheer numbers. Others thought they were making lots of piles of junk because that was the best bluff they could manage. The argument went back and forth but then the USSR collapsed and it was clear they had a lot of piles of junk and not a sophisticated strategy. But could that argument work sometimes?

Of course it can, it worked for us in WWII. We didn't have any armor nearly as good as a tiger tank but the germans didn't have nearly enough of them nor enough fuel. We didn't have any planes that could stand up to german jets but they came in too late and there weren't nearly enough of them nor enough fuel.

If iran could make lots of inferior planes that might make a big difference in a middle east that didn't have us in it. But unless they had a reasonable range it would be only a defensive advantage.

What could force us out of the middle east? We might run out of money, or run out of fuel. I doubt anybody has a plane that can match our F22 but it uses -- what? 1600 gallons an hour? 2000? It could turn out at some point we don't have enough of them, or enough fuel. And if iran can design working planes they might design planes that meet their needs. Maybe fuel-efficient ones.

On the other hand, if we keep a strong military presence in the middle east, iran will need to be our ally. They did very well as our ally under the Shah. Within 10 years our interests and theirs might be closely aligned. And neither of us has many other friends in the middle east. They could forgive us the Shah as ancient history. Though a new war this year or next year would make it harder to become allies so soon.

So that's my take on it. If they can design and build planes it may make a big difference after we leave. Not very important unless we leave, though they might possibly choose the sort of warplane design that works in new circumstances, before we do.

sorry for my poor english.
iran isn't treath for another countries. they do passive
defence, not active. and they don't have nuclear weapons because both allowed in islamic law.
but i'm sure they will dominate the air superiority in the future.

No one of the commentators, most probably, visited any research center inside iran. Neither any of their 51000 units of research distributed over industries and faculties and different branches from agronomy, social sciences to navigation and microelectronics.

:) It is easy to make fun of others, but soon a lot of people will be surprised. What iranians break in was not technology but the art of managing things, with this even biggest projects became small things. Yes 51000 units of research.

Can you beleive this. add to this an intranet for their private publications. Be surprised people.

In order to understand more see who set the arabic unicode standards, they were not arabs bur persians.