I checked out Mr. LaFreniere's post, and then Mr. Walzer's original article. Much to dismay, I didn't see any actual examples of my "side's" nutjobbery, save a hysterical call from one of Sean's friends and an update that quoted Altman (a WWII veteran) out of context.

Mr. Walzer's article, as seminal as it might be, is a theoretical exercise that starts with the premise of a "radical failure in the left's response" and goes steadily downhill from there.

I'm all for honest discussion about the left's place in the post-9/11 debate, but not with an amalgamation of silly stereotypes of "artsy sets" that listen to Paganini instead of watching WWF Smackdown as a startig point.

Joe, be careful with the MEChA thing...I have some direct experience, and it's a tempest in a teapot (I oughta blog something...)

A.L.

Its a "tempest in a teapot" only because Democrats get away with their racists being brazen and open.

I must say, A.L., I'm disapointed in your reaction. Almost as disapointed as Joe was with one of Trent's remarks last week.

I say "almost" because I'm resigned to the fact that Liberals react this way to racial extremist groups that are "multicultural" expressions. But I really did expect better from you.

(Oh, and I'm not exactly unfamiliar with MEChA types, either).

Given what MEChA believes, A.L., as documented very clearly by Tacitus, I'm trying to understand how you could say that.

"Oh yeah, I was in the Klan. I wasn't the most radical KKKer, lots of guys were more hyper than me. But there were a lot of, like, older guys there, you know. They were like big brothers. They taught me a lot."

Which is basically what Bustamante just said. And of course, it ain't complete without a good ol' boy or 2 to cover:

"Nah, Cruiser's just regular folks. You know, the boys get together and blow off steam now and again, but it don't really mean nuthin'."

Yeah, yeah. We've heard it a million times before. Wasn't any more credible back then, either.

Look, everyone has the right to be stupid when they're young. But some choices go beyond just stupid, and those should leave a permanent stain - barring serious contrition and efforts to undo the damage. Bustamante shows no evidence of either; indeed, his recent comments are themselves more whitewash than honest acknowledgement.

Robin, there's a Brit bar that hosts a monthly get-together for the locals from the UK; harmless racial identity gathering or terminal racism??

MEChA wasn't what it is being described as back when Cruz and I went to college (at different schools); I have some direct experience on this.

A.L.

arrrgh...having MT issues over at Armed Liberal, and can't post what I just wrote and can't get it out so I can copy it here.

Short version: I hung out with and was nominally a member of MEChA at UC Santa Cruz in 1970 - 71.
Bustamente's experience would have been a year or two later.

At that time, it was furball of an organization, as were most; it was, however, the leading on-campus Latino 'identity' organization. It was seeded with hard-core radicals, but they were a small percentage; and I'll note that on campuses at this time, pretty much every left-of-center group was as well. They certainly weren't in control of the organization then; it was much more a place for latino student politicos.

To associate that with the KKK is a bad analogy; should I be concerned about being a member of the NRA because some percentage of the memebership are fans of Lester Maddox??

Very few minority college students in that era at any college were not members of some ethnic identity group, all of which has some fringe of nutcases. In many cases, the nutcases wrote the pamphlets and media for the groups, making them appear far more radical than they were in reality.

I don't defend ethnic identity politics (although I temper my criticism by noting that it has been an important part of assimilation for the irish, Italians, Polish, and Jews); and I'll certainly acknowledge that that place (California) and that era (the 70's) produced some wonderfully stupid shit, which some people sadly hang onto today.

But unless you can show me writings by Bustamente (who I don't support, BTW) that show that he held the opinions you're hammering him for...and I might even give him a bye as having done that a teenager...it's a nonissue to anyone who knows the time and place.

A.L.

OK, lets say that MEChA has changed significantly. Lets say it has become a hate group since that time. Why wouldn't someone who cared be really upset by that change, and take the opportunity to take a strong public position?

Unless Bustamante has done that and we've missed it, all that does is shift him from the "hater coverup" category to the "morally silent enabler" category - or worse, given the legitimacy he lends MEChA when he speaks positively of his experiences in that group.

Yes, the difference matters - but he's still very much on the wrong side of the moral line. Nor does this difference affect or explain Calpundit's excusatory description of MEChA, despite reading Tacitus' well-documented article.

Hmm, our posts are crossing in cyberspace. But I'll add this - if you let the radicals do your group's pamphlets and media, and therefore state your public position, I'm going to have less than zero sympathy for later claims that the group is getting an unfair rap. On the contrary, it's getting a perfectly fair one.

Re: the KKK analogy. I have no idea who Lester Maddox is. But if the NRA allowed David Duke to write its pamphlets and do its media, then yes it would deserve every bit of withering criticism it would receive. At which point, continued membership in it would also begin to carry a serious moral taint from my perspective.

Well, first of all, I'll suggest that there's a crucial distinction that needs to be made; it definitely sounds like the full panoply of post-modern ethnocentric nonsense is in play in what I read over at Tacitus', but two points re MEChA, and one re Bustamente:

1) It's no big deal; it's a bunch of college kids doing what Erin O'Connor busts them for on a regular basis. That's not to say it's good...but there's a huge difference between the KKK and the IJ - WHO KILL PEOPLE FOR REAL - and a bunch of Latino academics demanding that we give back the Southwest.

2) I could make a pretty good argument that...say...LGF was a 'hate site' based on a selective sample of what's written there; people with an agenda have done just that. I'd like some sense of what MEChA is today (and what it's been in the interim) from some people who knew (ideally, folks like me, who aren't opposed and aren't involved).

re Bustamente, for you to say "here's an organziation you were involved with when you were nineteen, it's saying some pretty hateful things and unless, thirty years later, you repudiate it - which will have huge negative political consequences, BTW - you're a racist" is a kind of a trap.

I can go 45 mins up the road to UCLA and find a Jewish student organization that advocates deporting all the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza; or god knows what other nonsense. That's what students do. They think all over the place, and they emote strongly, and express themselves in overblown rhetoric, to cover for the fact that rhetoric is the only power they have. The fact that the free-range of student ideas are constrained by leftist administrations presents significant problems to our culture, in aggregate, and needs to be dealt with. But jeez, this is a thin reed on which to hang the guy.

There is a Latino/union political center in California to which he's essentially a slave. Talk about that. He's in hock to the Indian tribes and their gaming corporation masters, talk about that. But this is vapor, and ought to be treated as such.

A.L.

"Robin, there's a Brit bar that hosts a monthly get-together for the locals from the UK; harmless racial identity gathering or terminal racism??"

The analogy is strained at best. No one is saying that the local Mexican hang-out and bar is something radical and racist. However, MEChA is not that nor was it when formed.

A better analogy might be the British National Party. Sure, not everyone who votes for the BNP are racist scummers. But it's not exactly a group with clean hands, either.

The fact that "reasonable" Leftists found and find no problem clubbing with racial extremists on "their side" and none of them think that such a thing is a big deal, really is one of the problems.

"In many cases, the nutcases wrote the pamphlets and media for the groups, making them appear far more radical than they were in reality."

I've mentioned this problem before in other contexts - the Liberal passivity in the face of Leftist infiltration. The "Sure, let them speak for us, no biggie" attitude and then absolving yourselves of responsibility for it later and claiming that well "it really wasn't like it seemed. Yes, they wrote all the pamphlets and media pieces for us and we let them speak in the name of all of us, but instead of holding us accountable for what was done in our name, you should let them off the hook because I'm not like that. Now, let's get bach to Arnold's father. . ."

(Ok, that last sentance isn't you specifically. However, there is a double-standard in play regarding these things in general).

Indeed, what you say here is a "proof" of some of my points about how the Liberals have let the Leftist tail wag them for over thirty years and still consider themselves completely unaccountable for that fact and are surprised when anyone dares to indicate any responsibility might lay at their feet. That Kevin Drum would react as he has is "of a piece", as they say ("DOG BITES MAN"). But I did expect better from you.

Lester Maddox was a notorious Segregationist Governor of Georgia during the Civil Rights era.

See here for a bit more (Obit).

Hitler said in 1933 "For the German Race everything, for all other races - nothing".

Is that racist? Is that a plan for genocide?

Well the quote is wrong. It was not said by Hitler. It was not about Germans.

Let me give it to you in the original form.

"Por la Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada."

Rough translation: For those of the Race everything. For those outside the Race nothing.

BTW notice how Busted Mental looks like Himmler?

Please tell me the Democrats didn't know what Himmler, I mean Busted Mental, was all about. They already elected him once. Do you supose they will do it twice?

Busted Mental is going to taint ALL the Dems in the 2004 Pres. (dare I say it?) race. Given what I know about America today the Ds will be lucky to win dog catcher. The Rs have done their best to drum the racists out of the party (Buchannan). The Democrats had better start cleaning house at once if they hope to have a (dare I say it?) prayer in 2008.

Google "la Raza" it will make your hair stand on end. They are already doing better than David Duke. They have their own radio station.

A.L. - sad to say the liberals are no longer liberal. They stand for racism (Al Sharpton, la Raza) and theft (higher taxes). I quit being a liberal 25 years ago. One of the best decisions I ever made in my life.

A.L.,

Sorry, but you're going to have to come up with something better than that. M. Simon correctly pointed out the motto of MEChA, and there is no way to get around the "La Raza" crap. "For The Race, Everything; For Everyone Else, Nothing"? No. The KKK analogies are spot-on, rhetorically, and I have no confidence that this sort of rhetoric will stay purely rhetorical. Look at the history of such things; is there any particular reason to think that Brown Supremacists are any less dangerous than the White or Black or Arab variants?

I'll also bring up the group's symbol: an eagle with a stick of dynamite in one claw and a machete in the other...and point out that MEChA has been responsible for some fairly substantial property damage in the past few years. This is a group that has as a stated goal the violent overthrow of the southwestern U.S. Yeah, maybe back in the '70s it was all about "ethnic solidarity" (what a praiseworthy goal! oh wait, that always turns out badly), but it's a bit more than that today.

Armed Liberal:

"or god knows what other nonsense. That's what students do. They think all over the place, and they emote strongly, and express themselves in overblown rhetoric"

I know what ya mean, man. It's like when I was in college, I joined a group, the White Aryan Resistance. We used to meet at a bar, quote passages from "The Turner Diaries", drink, tell off-color jokes, and talk about how this would be a much better country if all the "Mud People" and the "mongrels" their White race-traitor girlfriends whelped were gone.

I wasn't the most radical member of W.A.R., though. I was moderate and didn't go in for some of the extreme proposals. By the way, I'm thinking of running for political office. I'm happy to hear my membership in W.A.R. won't be held against me.

(race traitor, coconut, six of one, half a dozen of another)

A.L. "I can go 45 mins up the road to UCLA and find a Jewish student organization that advocates deporting all the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza; or god knows what other nonsense."

Bet you couldn't. Certainly not one that has this as its official policy on pamphlets etc. The late Meir Kahane's "Kach" faction would be the relevant organization, and they don't have campus wings. Not only because they'd face opposition from existing Jewish groups like Hillel, but also because student association codes against racism would be enforced to bar them. Oddly, that doesn't seem to happen to groups like MEChA. Why not?

Re: Bustamante... I could care less about who becomes California's governor, and if I wanted to hang the guy politically I would indeed focus on other issues. That's not my focus here.

What is my focus, is the double-standard on racism found on the left, and the tendency of liberals to excuse even the most poisonous racism when they find it on "their" side.

A.L., if we want to play strained analogy, I could say that "it was just a social club" was a frequent defense of membership in the KKK at one time.

In the '70's, I attended Cal State Northridge, home of Prof. Rodolfo Acuna, one of the originators of much of the Aztlan nonsense, and I saw MECHA and its membership from the outside. I thought of it then as a quasi-national socialist group. My opinion of it hasn't changed.

I'm not saying that Cruz or yourself really are or were racist. I'm saying that MECHA itself was and is an organization founded on what are, by today's political standards, racist ideology. If you took what MECHA has put forward as its creed, translated each reference to Mexicans or Hispanics to "white people", all you would be missing would be the white hoods.

Now people like Alan K Henderson are having great fun with the overtly anti-semitic Aztlan website. Although I think Alan can't quite support his claim that it is the "official" publication of MECHA, he can show plenty of links.

Perhaps it was a social club of ethnics for you and Cruz. But that defense doesn't work for other parallel organizations, it should not be accepted here.

Hmmm. I need to think on this a bit.

As I do, let me leave you with one thing:

While a UCSC, I was exposed to pretty much the panoply of leftist organizations (among other things, I was pretty involved in campus politics); many of them failed the 'smell test', and formed part of the basis of my thinking about Bad Philosophy. MEChA didn't, for whatever reasons. So a big part of my reaction is subjective.

So let me go, take that, think for a while, and try and either defend my position or back away from it.

A.L.

Joe wrote:

"Re: Bustamante... I could care less about who becomes California's governor, and if I wanted to hang the guy politically I would indeed focus on other issues. That's not my focus here."

And I've endorsed Bustamante for Governor because

A Vote for Bustamante is A Vote for Accountability!

I think this old post of Meryl Yourish's has some instructive parallels on this matter.

One thing that has not been mentioned is that MEChA has no -- absolutely no -- following in the larger Hispanic community. My wife is Hispanic. Both of her parents are immigrants. I know hundreds of California hispanics. I can tell you that the Mechista movement simply does not exist outside of campus student centers. Mechistas are just an ethnic version of campus Marxists and Libertarians. They have no following at all. None.

The conservative authors know this full well, but they are acting as if the MEChA movement is some kind of hispanic fifth column, and that there are a sizable group of Californians who really do want to see the state become part of Mexico. They know that's flase. But they're using it as a cheap smear tactic to get white voters all fired up against Bustamante.

I'm not defeinding the quasi-racism of the MEChAists, but I'm not offended by it either because it's, well, hard to take seriously. You guys think that Cruz Bustamante is some kind of Hispanic Louis Farrakhan or Nathan Bedford Forrest. Well, he's not. There is no anti-white racism in the Hispanic community. I realize that the MEChA platform appears contains some, but it's just...well...not true. The platform may says that, but no one actually thinks that way, and no one ever will.

The key to understanding this is that there really is no such thing as a Hispanic ethinc idenity, or Hispanic nationalism. Hispanic people aren't conscious of being "brown" in the same way that black people are conscious of being "black." They don't thirst for "brown" role models to look up to (no one in the Hispanic community will really care all that much if Bush appoints a Hispanic supreme court justice), and they are seldom harassed by the police on account of thier "brown" skin. Not here in California, anyway.

The Hispanic identiy, to the extent that it exists at all, has much more in common with the mindset of white ethnic groups like the Irish and the Italians than with that of African-Americans. The Hispanic idenity is maybe 10-15% racial (after all, you are brown), and 85-90% cultural. (you are Catholic, you enjoy Hispanic foods, you may have many brothers and sisters, etc.)

Absolultey no one takes the whole "we didn't cross the border -- the border crossed us!" thing seriously. There is absoultely no chance of, and no one wants, Calfornia to be returned to Mexico. If that were to actually happen, you'd probably see a massive influx of Hispanic immigration into New England and Canada. California hispanics came here to get away from the corrupt and moribund Mexican system, not the other way around.

On a final note, while there is not a formal pusb toward assimilation of Hispanics into American culture, believe me, they are assimilating. The Spanish spoken by the children of hispanic immigrants is usually pretty attrocious. Their children generally don't speak Spanish at all. American-born Hispanics don't watch spanish language TV, don't take any interest in Latin American politics, and generally don't know anything about Hispanic history or culture. California suburbs are filled with second-and-third generation Hispanics who are as generically American as any WASP descendant of the Mayflower.

Given this, the whole Bustamante MEChA hysteria strikes me is quite unfair. I'm probably not going to vote for him, but the fact that he was once a member of MEChA is meaningless to me.

"You guys think that Cruz Bustamante is some kind of Hispanic Louis Farrakhan...."

No, I don't. He is, however, a guy running for governor who can't find it in him to say that Louis Farrakhan types and their agenda of hate are wrong. While at the same time benefitting from accusations of racism against one opponent's father, for something that happened before his opponent was even born. Moral obtuseness and the usual liberal double-standard, all rolled into one neat package - and THAT is what has me bothered.

I'm glad to hear that MEChA has little support beyond our campuses. I would hope that remains true. Meanwhile, the campus environment that encourages and funds such groups strikes me as another worthy topic of conversation. But that is for another post.

Joe Schmoe writes: "I'm not defeinding the quasi-racism of the MEChAists, but I'm not offended by it either because it's, well, hard to take seriously."

So we don't have to take joke racism seriously?

"You guys think that Cruz Bustamante is some kind of Hispanic Louis Farrakhan or Nathan Bedford Forrest. Well, he's not. "

At the moment, what is clear is that Cruz belonged to an organization with a racist manifesto and refuses to renounce it. I've yet to conclude that that means Cruz himself is racist ... but I'm getting close.

"There is no anti-white racism in the Hispanic community. I realize that the MEChA platform appears contains some, but it's just...well...not true."

Since no one is claiming here that the Hispanic community as a whole is racist, that's a rather brazen strawman. But you then undermine yourself by admitting that MECHA "appears" to contain racist ideology. Let's try for some consistency.

"The platform may says that, but no one actually thinks that way, and no one ever will. "

The platform was just written for what ... practice?

Joe:

Your post is rife with red herrings. No one here was criticizing the larger Hispanic community or tarring them all as MEChista.

This does make your objection to our objection to those who are a bit odd. As if a rebuttal to those who are concerned with people who have been members of White extremist groups can be dismissed by "hey, most Anglos have nothing in common with them therefore I resent you disliking those who are and consider it unfair of you to object to David Duke."

That's a specious argument, but unfortunately it is all too often what passes for a response/reaction to these things as long as they're of a certain sort.

No one has posted a comment in this thread decrying the Hispanic/Latino presence in the U.S. in general and this is not an anti-immigrant website.

But extremist groups - no one should object to those who consider them out-of-bounds, politically anathema, or call criticism of them "unfair" in the way you did. Especially, IMO, mainstream members of the communities those groups falsely claim to be the spokesmen and representatives of.

Again, the problem is too often what I remarked upon in my response to A.L.'s attitude on this: all too often people are content to sit back, do little while the extremists "represent" them in public, but then are shocked and object when someone says the views expressed publically by this group (whatever it is) are not respectable political discourse - and, yes, some conclusion can be drawn from someone who, unlike most Hispanics/Latinos was a member and refuses to repudiate what the group on the grounds of what its own "pamphlets" and "media" present to the public (again, if that stuff isn't representative of MEChA as a whole, then shame on the supposed majority of members who don't believe that stuff but let extremists sbe their spokesmen, whether out of apathy or "I don't want to cause a fuss" or whatever).

P., I assume the "Joe" you're referring to was "Joe Schmoe"? Had me going there for a minute.

Guys, I know what you are saying. Let me try to clarify this.

I am not offended by the racist stuff in the MEChA platform becuase I don't beleive that the sentiment it purports to codify actually exists.

There is no anti-white racism in the Hispanic community. None. Even the most fervent Mechista doesn't actually have anything against white people. No one is repulsed by the idea of miscegnation between lecherous white men and virginal hispanic women. You'll never see a Hispanic version of the KKK in Southern Calfiornia, or anywhere else. Hispanics don't have a visceral dislike of whites.

Many hispanics are white, actually. In my own family, my mother-in-law is as brown as they come, my father-in-law is white but wears Hispanic clothing and has a pencil line mustache, my wife has white skin and fairly Hispanic features, my sister-in-law is quite brown, and my son is something in between. Sometimes he looks white, sometimes he looks Hispanic. We don't know what he'll look like when he gets bigger. And take a look at the babes on Univsion sometimes. plenty of blond hair (and bikinis!) there, and believe me, they're Hispanic. Probably 10-15% of the Mexican population is white. Almost 100% of the Argintinean population is white. Most Spaniards are white. Hispanics can be white.

What I am suggesting is the anti-white racisim in the MEChA platform is meaningless. It does not exist; It is just hot air. It's as if the Republican platform contained a lot of anti-Texas sentiment. It would be meaningless, because Republicans simply don't hate Texas.

So why, you ask, is it in there? Why did the platform's drafters take the trouble to write all of that racist stuff if they don't actually believe it?

I have a theory. My theory is that in the 1960's, campus hispanics (and campus Asians, but that's another story) basically took the black civil rights model and adopted it wholesale. They did this because they got caught up in the intellectual trend of multiculturalism and ethnic identity politics.

Therfore, the Back to Africa and reparations movement became the Atzlan movement. The "Oreo" insult was translated to "Coconut." Just as black Americans were encouraged to learn African history, Hispanic Americans were encouraged to learn Mexican history. In keeping with the sentiment of the times, Cortez and the Spaniards were portrayed as avaracious racists and imperialists, rather than men who, while shattering the evil Aztec empire (which was not a democracy, incidentally) put and end to barbaric practices like human sacrifice.

The problem was that the black civil rights model isn't really suited to Hispanics. You know how you hear KKK and militia guys talking about "white pride" and "white power." It sounds meaningless, doesn't it? There really is no such thing as "white pride," or "white power." The MEChA movement suffers from the same problems. They have all of that racist stuff but, just as whites really aren't oppressed in America, Hispanics really don't consider themselves superior to other races. They've adopted the rhetoric, but it doesn't square with reality.

BTW, I realzie that I compared the MEChA movement to the KKK just now. Here is the difference: there is no history of anti-white discrimination in America (except maybe where affirmative action is concerend), but there IS a history of white racism. This is why the KKK should be condemned. It uses the rhetoric of a civil rights group, but in reality, it is a hate group. By contrast, there is no history of anti-white racism. This is why MEChA is no big deal. While it uses hateful rhetoric, it isn't really a hate group, because hispanics simply don't hate whites. The groups (MEChA and KKK) are similar in that both borrow the rhetoric of the black civil rights movement, but it is not really suited to whites or Hispanics.

Anyway, that's why I think that Bustamante's membership in MEChA is no big deal. I don't think he needs to repudiate his membership, or speak out against anti-white racism, beucase it is pointless to speak out against something which does not exist.

Joe, your posting paraphrases to "its there, but it isn't there".

And that doesn't work as a defense. Instead, you are only confirming a double standard.

Robin, with respect, no, it doesn't. A more accurate take is "it's there, but it's meaningless."

A lot of white people seem pretty eagar to find evidence of hispanic "racism." It doesn't exist.

There are plenty of double standards where race politics are concerned. Affirmative action is basically the institutional embracing of double standards.

Moreover, racial identity politics are a very, very bad thing. I think we should all think of ourselves as Americans, rather than hypenated-Americans.

But if you're looking for anti-white racism among Hispanics, you're not going to find it. If you drive through East LA today, you won't be met by hostile stares from the guys in low rider Impalas. If you want to date someone's daughter, it's no problem at all. Those old men in tank tops sitting on the porches, listening to the soccer game. and sipping Malta India don't have anything agianst you. That's just the way it is.

More strawmen, Joe, no one here is claiming that the entire Hispanic community is racist. And its getting old that you keep reviving that strawman.

But I will find racism in MECHA.

And while Bustamante's buddies are trying to claim that Arnold is bigoted for being on the board of US English ( and amazingly stupid claim since Arnold is an immigrant too ), MECHA's racism is in play.

The partisan Democrat's treatment of MEChA and similar groups among blacks is no different than their treatment of the KKK in the pre-Civil Rights South. A nod at the racism, a wink towards the crimes, accusations that anyone bringing the matter up is "over reacting" -- and advocacy of race-based policies in education and employment.

We've seen this play before.

I just wonder why it's being acted out again. Has the entire party learned the wrong thing from its history?

Joe, I've kicked off some emails and will do some homework over the weekend about MEChA specifically. I do think, havingread through the links, that your comment about Dave Neiwert's post (characterizing it as a "whitewash") is unjustified. His comments certainly echo my personal experience, and I've seen nothing here or elsewhere in the discussion that really backs me off of that.

Having said that, I'm mentally unpacking some issues that 'll try and put up here, which in a simplified way look like this:

Racial rhetoric; does position matter? While I intellectually reject the notion that words change based on who says them, there is a part of me that is sympathetic to those on the short side of power who use strong rhetoric. I tend to see it a phase, both in establishing self-identity and in 'turfing off' some space in the larger culture. But...what's the boundary between that position and Baudrillard? If there isn't one, it's unsustainable.

Clearly at some point it becomes over-pervasive and pernicious; it also becomes counterproductive once a certain level of cultural acceptance has been won.

Interesting...I need to go look at some early U.S. history as well...

A.L.

Funny thing here Joe Schmoe. The same arguments you use were used re: the Nazis in Germany. The Nazis are not for real. The Germans are a civilized people. Nobody buys into that stuff. It is rediculous. The Germans are a cultured people who would never fall for that stuff. etc.

I wouldn't want to take the first step down that road knowing what the last step might be.

Notice I said might.

That road is too dangerous. Steeply down hill with sharp curves, two lanes of traffic, one lane of road.

Yes, but M. Simon, there is no history of Hispanic-on-white pogroms here. Anti-Semitism was very real, so there was every reason to take it seriously. But there is no anti-white racisim in the Hispanic community. Not a single Hispanic -- not one, including Bustamante -- actually feels that way.

The idea of Hispanic racism is bogus. Conservatives seem to want to believe in that bogeyman, but it does not exist.

Robert is absolutely right; racial politics are a very bad thing.

MEChA should be condemned becuase it promotes racial identiy politics. Bustamante should speak out against it for THAT reason.

Booze Crustamante (just kidding - I like the way that sounds...) is hanging his hat on three things: he's not Davis; he's the only Democrat who can win; and he's a Latino.

I don't get his unwillingness to disavow MEChA. It would be pretty easy for him to say that what MEChA purports to stand for now is not what he believes or stands for - and that that stuff wasn't around, or he didn't know about it - when he belonged. And I don't know how that costs him votes anywhere.

So why not? Maybe MEChA did stand for those things when he belonged and he doesn't want to lie. Hell, maybe there's even a pamphlet somewhere with his name on it. Maybe he thinks voters won't care and if he ignores it, it will go away. He surely wouldn't be the first politician hoping for that. Maybe he thinks disavowing MEChA will hurt him with other Latinos. Maybe he thinks he's being pushed on the issue, and wants to show he's tough enough to take the heat. Maybe he's just tone-deaf.

I don't know why he won't disavow MEChA - but it bothers me that he won't - or can't.

Joe Schmoe,

Yes, but M. Simon, there is no history of Hispanic-on-white pogroms here.

There wasn't any recent history of that in Germany either. For 100 years German Jews had done quite well. These things don't start all at once. There is a progression.

Anti-Semitism was very real, so there was every reason to take it seriously. But there is no anti-white racisim in the Hispanic community.

Go look into the philosophy of Aztlan (the "A" in MEChA). Quite a bit of Jew hatred and Palestinian Hamascide bombing support at those sites. Google - Aztlan Palestine. Remember I am not talking the general Latino population just the organization Busted Mental belonged to. Which is the relevant point. You can stay on point can't you?

Not a single Hispanic -- not one, including Bustamante -- actually feels that way.

Wouldn't it be nice to actually hear him say that the idea of Aztlan is wrong. Until he does I'm going to assume that he still favors the concept that he once suported.

Damn can it be so hard? I once supported communism. I am therefor responsible in my own way for the deaths of millions of Cambodians, Vietnamese boat people etc. May God have mercy on my soul.

Of course if Busted Mental still supports Aztlan that is fine. We can bring him up on charges of treason. A public hanging might be a good idea.

Joe Schmoe,

*Aztlan #1*

*Aztlan #2*

*Aztlan #3*

*WhoIsMecha*

Here's a post by Atrios:

U.S. English

Arnold Schawrzenegger is on the board of U.S. English. The co-founder of the group is John Tanton, who once circled this Murrayesque memo to his fellow travelers:

"In this society, will the present majority peaceably hand over its political power to a group that is simply more fertile," Tanton wrote in his 1988 memo. "Can homo contraceptives compete with horno progenitivo if our borders aren’t controlled. . . .Perhaps this is the first instance in which those with their pants up are going to get caught by those with their pants down. As whites see their power and control over their lives declining, will they simply go quietly into the night? Or will there be an explosion."

That was enough to get Walter Cronkite and Linda Chavez to resign. Not Arnold.

About three months ago U.S. English hired James Lubinskas, an assistant editor of American Renaissance, white supremacist magazine. This apparently caused David Horowitz to leave the board, (despite that fact that Lubinskas seems to have been frequently published in Front Page Magazine). But, not Arnold.

At my high school there was a Mecha organiztion. I was highly involved in extracurricular activities: Academic Decathlon, National Honors Socitety, Future Business Leaders of America, etc. On many occasions, I would meet with members of Mecha to plan "club rush week", and never did I once get the impression that these highly- motivated, articulate students were part of a group with ideals analogous to Adolph Hitler's. Logically, one would have to wonder why a "radical" group would be acceptable at a public high school. Why no protests from the school board or parents? The group seemed more an organization to empower latino students into believing the American dream of equality while taking pride in one's heritage, rather than a recruitment vehicle for militants. Having said this, I will state that as a healthy skeptic, I looked up the Mecha organization and found that the whole Azatlan takeover garbage is based on a myth...Doubtful that anyone would create a hostile takeover based on a myth. My conclusion? "Azatlan" is just a theoretical reality (a paradox, my apologies) illustrating that America (not just the southwest)is a land that holds the key to future prosperity for the Latinos that live here. Anyone who refutes this latter statement would then be admitting that they wish Latinos to stay under the poverty line indefinitely....Vote McClintock!

At my high school there was a Mecha organiztion. I was highly involved in extracurricular activities: Academic Decathlon, National Honors Socitety, Future Business Leaders of America, etc. On many occasions, I would meet with members of Mecha to plan "club rush week", and never did I once get the impression that these highly- motivated, articulate students were part of a group with ideals analogous to Adolph Hitler's. Logically, one would have to wonder why a "radical" group would be acceptable at a public high school. Why no protests from the school board or parents? The group seemed more an organization to empower latino students into believing the American dream of equality while taking pride in one's heritage, rather than a recruitment vehicle for militants. Having said this, I will state that as a healthy skeptic, I looked up the Mecha organization and found that the whole Azatlan takeover garbage is based on a myth...Doubtful that anyone would create a hostile takeover based on a myth. My conclusion? "Azatlan" is just a theoretical reality (a paradox, my apologies) illustrating that America (not just the southwest)is a land that holds the key to future prosperity for the Latinos that live here. Anyone who refutes this latter statement would then be admitting that they wish Latinos to stay under the poverty line indefinitely....Vote McClintock!

At my high school there was a Mecha organiztion. I was highly involved in extracurricular activities: Academic Decathlon, National Honors Socitety, Future Business Leaders of America, etc. On many occasions, I would meet with members of Mecha to plan "club rush week", and never did I once get the impression that these highly- motivated, articulate students were part of a group with ideals analogous to Adolph Hitler's. Logically, one would have to wonder why a "radical" group would be acceptable at a public high school. Why no protests from the school board or parents? The group seemed more an organization to empower latino students into believing the American dream of equality while taking pride in one's heritage, rather than a recruitment vehicle for militants. Having said this, I will state that as a healthy skeptic, I looked up the Mecha organization and found that the whole Azatlan takeover garbage is based on a myth...Doubtful that anyone would create a hostile takeover based on a myth. My conclusion? "Azatlan" is just a theoretical reality (a paradox, my apologies) illustrating that America (not just the southwest)is a land that holds the key to future prosperity for the Latinos that live here. Anyone who refutes this latter statement would then be admitting that they wish Latinos to stay under the poverty line indefinitely....Vote McClintock!

"anyone who disagrees with Whoa's interpretation is automatically a racist, sexist homophobe trying to keep people down" is a dirty, underhanded, and disreputable method, beyond the pale of civil discourse - a-priori demonization of disagrement rather than any providance of evidence.

Is there any evidence whatsoever of such an interpretation of the racial language of MEChA publications, including, by the way, overtly hostile and negative characterizations of Anglos that, were the shoe on the other foot, you would likely be condeming rather than rationalizing away?

People here and on other venues who were themselves members of MEChA, even when they did not believe the group as a whole was radical or racist, did not argue that this was some sort of "alegory" for fitting into American society.

Your assertion is without evidenciary merit and thus your effort to demonize anyone who might disagree with it is odious and contemptable.

Whoa, you are trying to rewrite the history of MECHA. You can't pretend that the Santa Barbara plan is just a christmas fable.

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