Guest Blog: Rocking for the Free World (3/3)

This is a very special series for Winds of Change.NET. Thanks to the cooperation of András Bacsi and the Hungarian Embassy in Washington, Hungarian Ambassador Andras Simonyi and Jeff "Skunk" Baxter of Steely Dan & The Doobie Brothers being featured here on Winds of Change.NET as a Guest Bloggers.

This final installment recaps the end of Friday's post, then bridges into a fascinating Q&A session that draws some interesting parallels with present day events.

(Speech at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland on November 8, 2003)

...Andras Simonyi: Try, if you haven’t tried it, the excitement of strumming a Stratocaster. I think that’s the closest you can get to heaven before you really get there. Rock is about freedom, rock is believing in our freedom and the freedom of others. I reject the attacks that I hear on rock and roll music. I really think this culture, this museum that Terry Stewart and friends have given us, that the musicians have given us, will remain a lasting pillar in our relationship. I want to make sure that I use this opportunity to thank on behalf of many many millions of Hungarians, Russians and Czechs and Poles, East Germans for what you have given us in hard times, when you were the light for us, when you were the vehicle to the free world for us. Thank you Jimmy, thank you Eric, thank you Johnny, John, Paul, George and Ringo, thanks to Jeff, thanks to Steve Winwood and all the others. You have formed our minds, you have formed the mind of a generation.

We are now in the West ourselves. Thanks God you did not let us down. Rock is not a commercial success – rock is a cultural success. You have kept millions going. You have kept millions and millions hoping. You have warmed up the hearts of many millions of people behind the Iron Curtain. The message went through the airwaves and through the Iron Curtain, it went through the Berlin Wall. It was a bridge.

Now before I conclude, let me play a little piece and I want you to do a little guessing. I want you to guess who these guys are that were playing. (Music) Thank you, that was the message of freedom and you tell me later who that last guy was. Can you guess it? Who was it? Well, that was me [playing "Crossroads"]. Thank you so much.

(Applause)

Thank you. Skunk and I will be happy to answer questions related to this topic.

Q1: Your message in terms of the impact that rock and roll had in Hungary’s culture and politically was very strong. Today, we’re faced with the difficulty of Middle Eastern cultures. Are there any similarities to this situation?

Andras Simonyi: Absolutely. That’s why I said I don’t think rock and roll is imperialistic. It has been influenced by so many – I remember in 1967 I met with Ravi Shankar in Budapest. A great talk – he didn’t know what the hell I was doing there. I was there because of his rock involvement. They have influenced Western music. So has the music from my country. So there’s nothing wrong with interaction.

Those who say that through rock music we are importing an imperialistic attitude are wrong. I think those who are rejecting rock music, popular music, blues music in the Middle East and elsewhere are really scared of its power. A strong culture will not be defeated; it will be enhanced and it’ll only be better. And I do believe that the Muslim world should and could influence our cultures just like there is nothing wrong with us influencing and meeting their cultures. It’s not about pushing the other down, it’s about holding hands. It’s about the freedom of man. Skunk?

Jeff 'Skunk' Baxter: It adds another color to the palette. Sting about two years ago took a Persian lead singer with him, and much of his music was influenced by the Middle East. I know that it sounds like we are coming up with an original idea; it is and it isn’t. There’s even codification. There’s a gentleman I’m sure you are familiar with, Joseph Nye, who teaches at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, who wrote an incredible essay in the Foreign Affairs quarterly about eight years ago, which I read, called "Soft Power." Yes, the United States is militarily and economically strong but what’s the real power? It’s the power of the culture.

And just as we melded all the different kinds of music in our culture, as soon as media and as soon as communications became worldwide again, that music took and picked and chose and drew from every other influence. And sooner or later we’re going to have that same kind of mind-meld with the Middle East. But as you know, there’s a tremendous amount of fear. The one thing that the fundamentalists of any religion or any philosophy are most frightened of is individuality and freedom. And they’re going to fight this tooth and nail. But what happened with Andras? The Berlin Wall was made of cement, barbed wire, landmines, dogs, guns, rifles, but it didn’t make any difference. As I said when I came out of Moscow at that time, you could build any ballistic missile system but you can’t build an anti-groove system. And everybody wants French fries, blue jeans, and Elvis Presley. (Laughter and applause.)

Q2: Could you mention a little bit about what the culture is like in Hungary today? The music scene and the cultural scene? This kind of today’s environment.

AS: Well, it’s mixed like everywhere else. Lot of classical music, lot of local and folk music, and of course pretty much rock music as well.

In a way, you’d be surprised. The powerful attitude towards rock doesn’t seem to be there the same way. Maybe that’s natural. Maybe it’s because when you’re deprived of something, you want it so bad. Maybe it’s because free people get used to freedom so fast they don’t understand [what it is like not having it]. It’s important that my generation tells this story because 30 years later the younger generation doesn’t have a clue what it meant for me to sit there back home in Budapest dark at night and listen to forbidden radio. I think it’s an important message to get through.

The music scene, by the way, is great. There’s more interaction between international musicians, world music, and Hungarian musicians than before. I just miss this real creative thing [in rock] and I think maybe with more international cooperation that can come back.

Q3: First, I think you ought to be the first nominee from Hungary to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. (Laughter.) My question is: When you meet other ambassadors in Washington that you know that in their country they were denied the same freedoms of music, expression and many other things that you were denied, what do you tell them?

AS: What I tell the others? The things that I told you are pretty much discussed for example with the Czech ambassador, who was in Charter 77 and who is a close friend of Vaclav Hável. I think my story could be told in other countries as well. For example in Prague, Vaclav Hável embraced Lou Reed and Mick Jagger immediately after the Velvet Revolution because he thought it was important for him keeping his free thoughts alive. So we talk about pretty much the same things.

My story, you know, is a Hungarian story, with a slight Hungarian touch. Maybe Hungarians were a little more pushy towards freedom than others. Maybe we were a little ahead of others. Opening the borders for the East Germans in ’89 was pretty much a result of Hungary leading the pack in freedoms. But otherwise, the story is the same: Millions and millions of people behind the Iron Curtain longing to be part of the free world. That’s what we discuss.

Q4: Piggybacking on the previous question, just to see if you might have had a little bit more to say. Thank you so much for your impassioned and wonderful recounting of the influence of rock and roll on Hungarian culture, particularly in your background. Some of your photographs were very moving. My original question was: What influence rock and roll had on your culture after the fall of communism? You’ve answered a little bit today but I wonder if you could flesh out a little bit more. What happened in that interim between the fall of communism and the role of rock and roll today?

AS: This is what has happened. (Pointing to a photo behind him.) I am jamming with your NATO ambassador [Vershbow] and my daughter in Brussels at the American residence.

But joke aside, I think what happened is that we went through a pretty turbulent time until we became members of NATO, and now we are about to become members of the European Union. And of course it also means that we wanted to embrace freedom and the West the right way. We wanted to make sure that while fully embracing freedoms, what you have to offer and what other free countries have to offer, we keep our own culture and we stay what we are. My story is really about freedom and not only about importing something form the West uncritically. That’s why all the things that I’ve mentioned to you was quality and the same thing should be true for today. So in the interim period, I think it’s important that we don’t lose sight of the importance of embracing world culture, opening the floodgates, let the world influence Hungary.

But at the same time, as a proud nation, a country that has really nothing more to offer than powerful culture and science – we don’t have diamond fields and gold mines – what we can offer is interaction, cooperation with others. And I think this kind of cooperation that was established many many years ago should continue. Skunk?

JSB: Well, we need other countries to help us because we get kind of loose sometimes. I remember back in the sixties and early seventies we were suffering here in the U.S. from the "Bobby Syndrome." Bobby B., Bobby Rydell, Bobby Sheridan, Bobby Bobby Bobby. Our music was going down the tubes. Luckily, we had the Brits. They came back to us and said "Oh, by the way, guys, here’s where it really comes from, here’s the good part of it."

And what you see now, for instance when I travel in Southeast Asia, it used to be that the biggest-selling records in Korea and Japan were American records and British records. Now there are Korean records in Korea and Japanese records in Japan because those cultures have assimilated the pieces and the parts that they needed to assemble rock and roll music and put it into their own language. And it keeps going around and around and around. So I think what’s happened with Andras and the folks in Hungary, we’re going to see musicians coming out of Hungary joining up with American and British musicians because they will have learned, they’ll have been gone to the College of Musical Knowledge as I suppose you might want to call it and come back to us to show us skills that we thought we’d lost, things that we never understood, and new ways to do it.

So that’s what happening in his country and any country that understands freedom and begins to take it in as their own and starts to create their own version of rock and roll and popular music.

Q5: I sat and listened very attentively as you talked about what you were doing in Hungary and I’m just wondering, as you would listen to a song and play it, were you guys taught how to read music, or did you go by memory from just listening to the tunes on the radio and then playing it and not having the ability to actually read it and go from that point and improvise from it? And also, there was a Cleveland connection when you mentioned Tracy Chapman. Did you know that she is from Cleveland also? Well, I’m just pushing Cleveland right now. (Laughter)

AS: Well, that’s nice. We’ll take her in as an honorary Hungarian from Cleveland. There are so may good Hungarians here, Laci Böjtös, our honorary consul general is here, representing our great Hungarian community.

But to answer your question: You know, the interesting thing is that most people that played this popular music were sitting with a tape recorder and just copying it by ear. I do read a little music but honestly, this is the important stuff about it: Musicians who are very well educated in music, people who truly understand the theory like Jeff Baxter does and is technically also incredibly good, meet with people who are just good because it comes from the heart.

We Hungarians are lucky because we are taught music at school. Maybe that is why so many mathematicians come out of Hungarian schools. And maybe that is why Edward Teller, who was a great mathematician, played music from an early age. These things go together. Frankly, I think the big thing is that people can embrace it. I don’t think Robert Johnson or maybe some of the Roma Gypsy musicians in Hungary are very good at reading music. But, oh my God, what is it that they play. They play from the heart.

Q6: Thanks for the story. It was a great story and it really resonated with me. My father escaped in ’56 during the rebellion so I totally understood what you were talking about. Could you comment on current offshoots of rock, such as punk and metal? What do you think of that music? Any new bands or new artists that are popular now that you like?

AS: Well, I didn’t take the courage to comment on the music scene later in Hungary because I was watching form the sidelines, I was not in it. But I have to tell you, punk music had an incredible impact on Hungarian musicians.

Punk was the most politically radical and, for the authorities, the most scary kind of music that emerged in the seventies. You have to understand that for Hungary, for Hungarians, it was not just a shocking cultural innovation; it was not just an offshoot of rock music. For us, it was something really different. Punk music in Hungary was going against, not the cultural establishment, it was going against the political system. So punk and the underground scene in Hungary in the late seventies and early eighties was big.

There was this great group called the Galloping Coroners. Isn’t that a weird name for a band in a communist country in 1979? They would go and tease not just the public, but much more the authorities. And I think these were the guys [along with others] we have to thank for expanding gradually, going after the limits. I cannot comment on some of the other offshoots but I can tell you there are efforts today to copy rap music, with limited success. I think Hungarian rock music has so much indigenous to offer, so many Hungarian rock groups have embraced folk culture from the past, gypsy music, and mixed it with western rock that I don’t think we should be trying to use vehicles that don’t work.

Q7: Thank you very much for giving us information about music groups such as Locomotive GT, which I know well and is a truly a wonderful group, but other than LGT and some of the groups that you’ve mentioned what other groups would you feel are worth mentioning and recommending?

AS: I’d rather not. I had a personal involvement with this group and that’s the only reason why I picked one group, because I think they were symbolic and emblematic of what I did and what I thought. They were a couple of good groups but I don’t want to comment on them. Also, because quality was a result of some fights between groups just like in the West. We did have our Beetle vs. Rolling Stone fight, and I took sides. The name of my band was clearly to mock some other groups that I didn’t like so much. If you walk into a record store in Hungary today, you will find some lovely music. I agree with Skunk that some of these blues musicians were educated and trained in other countries as well as in Hungary. Look for some good Hungarian groups and you’ll find them.

JSB: Whether you are technically a student or not is really not the point. Bo Diddley only knows one chord but I can listen to that for hours because it’s so cool. And if I said to you "Hey man, why don’t you come down to my crib, jump in the fizz, […] my short and scarf, and you go "What?!" That was the guys back in the fifties who created bebop, creating a language of their own. What we’re talking about here is the ability to create a language so that a generation of people can talk to each other. Because I can’t speak Hungarian, and when somebody from Korea comes to me and doesn’t speak English, the point is have found a common language, melody, groove, tempo, feel. As you say, it’s not the texts, not the words so much because we’ve created a common language and melodies that brings people together and that’s constantly evolving.

Now, I thought a turntable was something you played records on. I didn’t know it was a musical instrument until I started to listen to rap music. It constantly surprises me how people take what we take for granted and create something totally brand new. And I think that's part of the bridge that we’re talking about. As long as this keeps happening, as long as rock music, this communication between people, keeps creating something new, it's always going to stay alive. And that's why the bad guys want to stop it now, because they're frightened to death of it.

AS: Thank you, Cleveland. (Applause) Of course, it was not my job and not my duty to give you a lecture about what rock and roll meant to you because let someone else tell that story. You have historians like Burt London from the Hudson Institute, who wrote a great book about that. That’s not my theme. But I do agree with you that it’s not over.

When I walk through this museum, what I see, what Terry and his colleagues are doing, it tells me that I'm kind of right. This is an incredibly strong foundation. This is really much more than has been suspected or spoken of in the past. So therefore Jeff Baxter and I have decided that we want to announce here the establishment of an institute that will work to research and educate on the impact of this kind of music in its broadest sense – rock, blues, soul, American, British, Hungarian – on contemporary society, on the World. We will be establishing this institute and, no doubt, it will have to rely very much on what Terry and his colleagues are doing. Thank you. (Applause)

All right, are there any more questions? Let's take one more question.

Q7: Thank you, Mr. Ambassador, your speech was wonderful, personal and very passionate. My question is: You were viewed pretty much as a radical of a kid, listening to Western radio and playing their music. How is it that you go from that to being an ambassador?

AS: That’s a good question. It’s because these days ambassadors are radicals, too. Let’s conclude on a very personal note. I’m just as passionate about what I do as a diplomat as I was about my music. For me, the music that I embraced made me a passionate person in everything that I do. For me, talking about security policy, talking about trans-Atlantic relations, talking about improving ties between nations, talking about the importance of America and Europe keeping together – I speak about these topics just as enthusiastically and just as devotedly as I spoke about the music; if you want, our music, if you want, my music.

Thank you so much. And thank you very much for coming.