pale.

Not Pail.

Guess what? The Germans ARE our friends, or at least will be if we let them. Maybe even more so if they warn us that the USA is turning into a police state. Plenty of Americans are saying the same thing.

I lived in Germany for 2 1/2 years in the 70s, during the Baader-Meinhof days, as an American soldier. I've been back in 84, 85, 88, 91, 99 and in February 03. I've worked with the German military. I can read and understand enough German to get the jist of their newspapers and news programs.

I've had encounters with the German police for traffic violations and rowdiness and encounters with US police for the same. The German police were always professional and had a good sense of humor - something not always true of US cops.

The Germans hosted the presence of a large US force on their soil for decades. As allies, not as an occupied people, although some GIs I knew thought of it that way.

Germany is now a democratic, tolerant, liberal state with much to admire, even to learn from. The unending attacks on countries which differed from us only on the risky war with Iraq are indicative of someone who never understood the value of the NATO alliance.

Well, I guess they should know.

Sorry to say this, but i agree, This Great Nation of ours is moving away from the freedom that is so loudly and fiercly states it is defending.

First of all, there are positive stories from Germany too. Second, I have real and serious concerns about recent developments, from RIAA efforts to Patriot Act II.

That said, it certainly isn't the place of a diplomat to make such comments. Especially comments with such an hysterical tone. It's a manifestation of the deeper anti-Americanism within Germany, and that's a real problem for the Germans if they want improved relations. Egregious politicking can be turned on and off at will - but deeper prejudices and even hatreds cannot.

Personally, I expect more of these incidents. I also expect them to have real costs over time. This relationship will get chillier before it gets warmer.

Paul A'Barge,

Thanks for the catch. I have corrected that.

Klaatu,

Some of the German people are our friends, not the majority. That is why Gerhardt the Frog wanna be is in charge in Germany.

Face facts, the old relationship with Germany has failed the audit of war.

Germany is in a peaceful backwater and the bases we have there are too far away from where America needs to project military power -- Central Asia and the Middle East.

Exactly what is in it for America to more troops back to Germany from the Middle East? We did that after the first Gulf War. Why should we incur those costs to return troops to those bases again and chance their deployment being held hostage to much less friendly German political elites next time?

Hells bells, the nominally more allied Italians held up the Deployment of the 173rd Brigade to Iraq for 2-3 days.

The chances that the Germans will do the same in the future approaches certainty because the Italians got away with it this time.

Nope. You are going to see a permanent rotating deployment of one to two heavy divisions to Iraq with Germany virtually American ground troop free.

The advantages in sailing time for American fast sea lift ships to the Mid East with heavy equipment from the American East coast, compared to a German Baltic or North Sea port, amounts to 12-48 hours. It just is not worth putting up with continental European politics for the sake of that small time advantage.

America will have a forward garrision in Iraq to cover heavy equipment preposition sets of another 1-2 heavy divisions for troops airlifted from America.

Bases in Europe will be primarily for American air refueling tankers and naval stores.

Shame to see Americans SO INTOLERANT of other people's views. Having lived in Germany and had visited and even married there, I can say that the people are honest and friendly. Sure, you might not like what they say, but at least they are willing to tell the truth! Now that I have been living in Japan for over 9 years, I could see from my last trip to the states, in March, how bad things have gotten. Cable TV spits out this right-wing venom, CNN has gotten into the act by hiring right-wing thugs from FOX, and to see each TV channel glorify and praise Bush ENDLESSLY makes me sick. Today, Paula Zahn was interviewing Al Gore's daughter, telling her, "Geez, how great it was to see Bush land on the deck of an AIRCRAFT CARRIER" going on to say, how "neat" or impressive that was, and implying that was a good reason for staying with Bush. It just goes to show you that these Americans love being brainwashed and in the final analysis are no different from the Chinese under Mao. GLAD I LEFT. If you want to know the real truth about what is going on, read Michael Moore's book or read Norman Mailer's comments on Bush. http://www.commonwealthclub.org/2002.html

Finally, it's interesting to note how Bush's ten nation (coalition) resembles that of the Roman Empire, and how the AntiChrist will rule the world with 10 nations.

Enjy!

Bill Gates will rule the world with 10 nations! Who knew? (Michael Moore, maybe, or perhaps Norman Mailer)

The US a police state? Hmmm, seems to me, Germany is the place with all those laws against free speech. And the EU is the place where laws in one member country apply to others, without any sort of recourse.

Yes, in the US, if you happen to be a member of a terrorist group, you might occasionally be hassled by the FBI. So in that aspect, it's much worse than the EU.

Gee, I was going to chime in here with something witty, but all the deep thinking has already been done. "AntiChrist" Yeah, keep it highbrow folks.
I would think/hope/bet that there are plenty of fine citizens in Germany who still think of the U.S. as an ally, a trading partner, and a friend. There are certainly those in America that hold Germans in that regard. As is demonstrated in the posts here though, there are probably enough jerks in both countries to drag us both down too.

Will people stop exaggerating? The US is a police state like China is a free country. Y'all have been screaming that the US is a police state since John Mitchell was attorney general. If that was true then John Ashcroft would have inherited a police state; he wouldn't be the creator of one.

This is ridiculous. The US has the most refined system of civil liberties on earth. Jeesh, keep a little perspective.

i am from germany and live in cologne.

let me say a few things.

1. the article from the times of london was exaggeration very much and today in germany you could read that it's high likely that it turns out to be wrong. the diplomat himself told germany press the day after he never was talking about an 'policestate' but wantet to warn about the restrictions in americas civil rights and liberties.
and i think he his very honest about this, what you do not know is he was germans embassador in washington a couple of years and also sadi he loves america and would like to return someday.

2. the same day in every newspaper you could read how germans from all parties and some none-political, too, are saying that if it turns out to be true that he talked about an 'policestate' this is hardely to condemn and they recommend resignation.

and i think there are some general things to talk about.

germany always where, and i think also in these day they are, the deepest friends of the USA in europe.
every generation in germany was even more 'american' than the generation before - beginning with the first 'americanization' after WWII was ended and the german 'economic miracle' bagun.
we were listening to american music, we wore american jeans, we watched hollywood movies, and we at american burgers [even if HAMBURGERS originally came from the german city of hamburg, and a german pilgrim braught this to america. you didn't knew this, huh?].
none of these, nor this generation has any hatrets against america - we STILL hear american music, wear american clothes and watch american movies, and we STILL believe in democracy and freedom, and in morality and humanity in foreign policy.

but you are not all the way wrong, also if here are nearly no germans how fosters real hatred in these days there are very many germans that are confused and that are frustratet - and also ANGERED.

do you know whar rhe german chancellor, george w. bush now says about who 'never' will become a friedn any more, said after 9/11? in these days he talked about 'infinite solidarity', and he promised to help you and fight with you whereever he can, and whatever happens - and a BIG, BIG, MAYORITY (i think nearly EVERY german) thought the same way, and felt the same way.
we, like [in my eyes] the WHOLE WORLD were standing aside with america, we felt with you.
in front of the american embassy lots and lots of flowers and candles where laid down, and people in whole germany came into the churches to pray with all americans, and especially with those that lost their lives at 9/11. even at OUR SCHOOL they planned a worship, and it tourned out that they have to make two because EVERY class wanted to participate.

why things have changed so much? all germans gone evil in a few months?
do you really think this way?
to talk about many people i know (and germany is not that big, you can read newspapers and can talk to people; you get to know what 'the country' is feeling, so i think i can talk in the name of many germans) most of them changed their minds about the 'infinite solidarity' in the month after 9/11, but not because they gone evil, but because of they seemed to not understand whats happening to america.
the WHOLE WORLD offered his support to you, and nearly EVERY COUNTRY (also states like SYRIA, some of your neocons now think of it may be a good party to invade) helped you in the 'war on terrorism' - but you rejectet these most of these offers, you thought you should make this alone.
without your old allys, without the propable new ones - and in the same breath you talked about your rejection of international agreements, like kyoto climate protocoll, like the biological warfare agreement, like the international court of justice.

two worldwars, and centurys of european warfare have constitutet eurpean history. 'war' in europe, and specially in germany, is not this glorious word and some thoughts about loyality and honor and 'support our troops' - thinking of war let european think fo the dirty, the 'real' face of war - of dead children, bombed cities, fallen soldiers, unworthy death of hundreds, thousends, somedays in european history there where millions.
none of these wars where great grand and glorious, none of them seemed to be worthy, every was cruel and brutal - THIS is german history. and thats what 'war' means to nearly every german - you can talk to old woman and man and thes will have tears in their eyes and think back of bombed and bunrning cities where tens of thousends sayed dead, you can ask young teenies and they tell you about their fear, and what they heard about in history and from their grandmothers and -fathers.

german citizens, and all german generations of 'peaceniks' became moralists, they don't see the glorious war, and they don't want to.
but this does NOT mean they totally decline going to war - a majority of germans was pro kosovo war because they saw that IN THE MOMENT the war begun, and also BEFORE it begun that milosevic was murdering civilians.
but what we heard and read about your planned wars in order of your 'war on terrorism', and, perhaps much more in order of your new 'grand design' planned by the neocons, was not anything that convienced us about war.
many germans just where schocked - and can't believe waht amounts of disinformation was aired in america itself(just see agonist.org and know what i am talking about), and what the neocons in washington the same minutes where talking about.
many germans where suspicious about your resons in afghanistan, and when kissinger said 'and know to iraq' they where convienced the reasons where not morally right, and when you snub the UNSC and presented faked or wrong 'evidences' in the same minutes now they where convienced you are morally totaly wrong, and wantet to show you this.
the people talked about in the media, and demonstrators showed it on the streets - THIS was democracy - and then the politician understood and tryed to talk about it, even tried to find peacful solutions.
but was came back from the other side of the ocean was not what many germans had expectet - they thought of a honest discussion but what they got where snippy words from your defense minister and your presidential advisors, they came to germany and talked in our talkshow about taht 'america has to go it alone'.
yes, we where disappointet - and every day it became worse, and then we became angry - what we could read in american newspapers was not what we wished when we startet the discussion and talked honestly and democratic to a strong FRIEND of us.
but what came back where europhob, and germanophob utterances, and a mixture between 'germans are nazis' 'shut up' and 'we do this our way' - this was NOT what you showed us is real democracy some 50 years ago...

in the days of the iraq war, some time pre and even now i was (and i am) reading american newspaper and - what perhaps is even much more interesting - american blogs, like this one. and was i read made me still more angry. to ME it really seems, that not the germans are americophob but that many americans are europhob - i can honestly tell you i know nearly NO german citizen that feels ANY hatrets about america - yes many are angry and dissapointed and also try to go the european way in these days but the NEVER would think of renaming any food, or reject their american lifestyle, and i can tell that every german i know taht critizized america did it REALLY HONEST, and talked from 'friend to friend', and didn't meant this any kind of anti-american.

so what really made me angry in these days was reading wrong and false news about whatever any german did, or that the germans where collaborating with the saddam (let me say this is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!!!) - and what some americans commented on. and sometime i also get sad because i see a great friendship breaking apart only in month', and can't tell myself whatever we did wrong when we rejectet to wage a war that seemed imorallic to many germans, who still couldnt forget kyoto and the biological warfare agreement and your neocons that where talking about the 'great design' that america has to do 'alone'.
and i think if you continue - then there is no other possibility left for you than doing it 'alone', because nobody left in the 'grand sandpit' who wants to play with the 'big brother'.

some last words:

are you aware that you are slighting many germans by saying things like this:

" Some of the German people are our friends, not the majority. That is why Gerhardt the Frog wanna be is in charge in Germany."[ - when you are talking about bringing your troops out of germany, you are aware that YOU brake the strong friendships many of your soldiers have here in germany, and that OUR GOVERNMENT is fighting for those troops to stay?]

"Germany is the place with all those laws against free speech" [let me tell this is absolute idiocy - what do you wanne tell us by saying such nonsense??]

"It's a manifestation of the deeper anti-Americanism within Germany"

i would like to see i any of YOU now can explain to me why in these days america seems to me full of hatrets against germany and france, and full of wrong nightmare-stories, and full of slighting against our countries.

ps: sorry because of my not very good english, but i think you can read it :)

I agree with Joe on this. Chrobog has a point about the US, regardless of whether he ignores similar points about Germany. He's definitely not who I'd want to hear it from, but that doesn't make his charge less troubling. (Also note Maxim's comment that he may not have used the phrase "police state", although I couldn't find evidence one way or the other in the German online media.)

Diana writes that the "US has the most refined system of civil liberties." I'd like to not have to revise that to "had". It's not the level of the system, it's the direction things are headed that is worrisome. Those liberties didn't get that way by saying "oh, well" every time an Attorney General came along and wanted to rewrite the rules.

US civil liberties have been eroded by Patriot Act I and threaten to be by II. The Patriot Act should remain a time-limited act, and should be shored up with increased Congressional oversight. II shouldn't be passed at all in its present form. Especially if Administration officials feel that Al Qaeda's losses have been *"catastrophic"*.

It's funny how Joe Katzman can twist common threads into absurdies; he must have learned from Rush Limbaugh or the other assorted right-wing cable TV thugs that now dominate the "news." No, Joe, if you read Revelations seriously, though you might not be a Christian, the AntiChrist (Bush) will rule the world with 10 nations. Read today in the Japan news about this 10 nation peace-keeper force. Conservatives tend to be optimists, but fascism is NOT an exclusive German or Japanese problem. It is not in their DNA!!!!! Both countries had VERY highly civilized cultures (more than I can say about he US, and I am American--a country that copies food and ideas and makes them WORSE), but look what happened when a fanatic pushed the fear and nationalism button. Repeatedly! Now, we have the fear, nationalism, and terror button thrown in with the "religous" button--how we have to kill those muslims that disagree with us! Gosh, it makes me so sick. Maxim is very right--but I see young Americans as indoctrinated as the Germans were in the 1930s. The point is: people are people. Americans are not immuned from fascisim! In fact, I find them far more gullible than Europeans. You can make jokes, Joe, but frankly, you are the one who will suffer. Diana, likewise, says that Germany is a place with laws against free speech, but I read recently about a person in Florida being sued because he protested against a developer's projects. I likewise was threatened when I tried to put up a green zone around a state park and river.
Free speech is only for the rich! Democracy is a JOKE in the US. Notice the nice zones in each city? All of the prisons, garbage dumps, and electrical power plants, incinerators, etc, etc, are in zone D--where the poor live. IN EVERY CITY!!!!! Yep. And I love how blacks are routinely denied jury trials in the US. And, Germany does NOT have laws which allow for unlimited detention and jail time WITHOUT trail, a law that was passed without a majority of senators and congressmen even READING IT! And to think that this has all come about with a 'president' who wasn't even elected, but appointed! Yes, and I love the free speech of the individual who was arrested in a new york shopping mall because he wore a T-short that stated "give peace a chance." You have to embrace the people who protest because if you don't, you won't have the RIGHT too. If you want to read more (though people like Joe won't) because they LOVE their closed mindsets---they have all the answers, and have read all of the books---even though they are probably only 22 years old, you can read the variety of websites that show the deception. Most right-wing "Christians" that Bush loves (Falwell, Graham, Tim Lahaye, Paul Crouch, Bill Bright, Robert Schuller, Pat Robertson, James Kennedy, Ralph Reed, Gary Bauer all have links to Reverend Moon and (and take money from) the Moonie Church. And these all influence Bush. It's actually quite interesting to delve deep into this nonsense, if you just want to be a mouthpiece for Bush, state this on your homepage. Call this "Minion City" or whatever. Try thought for once!

Robert Long

Thank you Maxim for you comment. I believe that your sentiment is close to the majority feeling in Germany.

As far as Schroeder's election being a sign of anti-Americanism, nonsense. The USA is not the only issue in the world. Maybe it had something to do with Kohl's long tenure and his scandals.

Electorates get sick of one party after a too-long tenure, as parties' ideas become stale.

Remember the Schmidt gov't? It was SPD. Schmidt never received the accolates he deserved for his backbone in the Cold War.

As far as the war goes, the Germans did assist in many ways, force protection, transportation, etc.