Jesus was a Jew and Saulo, Paul, was a Jew... as well as a Roman citizen. They lived and died in a time when Greek and Jewish culture had already been crashing, often violently, one into another for three centuries and a relatively modern population, tired of the old gods, was ready to listen to the good news.

In the begining, Christianity could have been considered just some form of adaptation of Judaism for the gentiles. However, the idea of God becoming a man, IMHO, has pushed civilization to a superior level. It is the crowning point of both Jewish and Greek cultures, focusing all the attention to the individual, the person, the center of everything, the begining and the end in the Western civilization. It is the most revolutionary idea I have ever heard of.

As a Thai told a missionary: I see that in christianity it is not easy to enslave someone, because everyone is the image of God.

"As a Thai told a missionary: I see that in christianity it is not easy to enslave someone, because everyone is the image of God."

Jefferson wrote, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by thier creator with certain inalienable rights..."

This is in fact a wholly unself-evident claim. There is no easy observation or measurement you can make where you might think me equal to Albert Einstein, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordon, Bill Gates, or for that matter they to me or anyone to anyone. Nothing is quite so easily observed as the fact that we are all different and possess talents and abilities to different degrees. I have known several individuals who exceed my talent in every measure, whether it be atheletic, cognitive, character or charismatic prowess.

It is in fact an utterly shocking and wholly unintuitive claim that Jefferson, by putting it at the level of axiom, is stating that he - and thereby We - shall not put up for debate.

But you cannot get to Jefferson's national profession of faith unless you are deeply steeped in a culture created by this spiritual claim by St. Paul:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

I thought this site was about politics not faith and that we, as Americans, believe in the separation of Church and State.

TOC, I thought the grocery store was about groceries but I found flashlights and household repair items there. I plan on giving the manager a good talking-to about how he's violating the bedrock retail principle of separation of food and tools.

Seriously, I think you're craning your neck a bit.

TOC in a previous life: I wish all of those religous nuts would stop complaining about slavery, the treatment of Indians, women's suffrage, public education, prison reform, worker health and safety. . .

And I am still trying to figure why the site's general manager, Joe Katzman, put up a post category called, "HUMANITY: Judaism: if he never wanted anyone to post thereunder.

Seriously, TOC, get a grip.

"I thought this site was about politics not faith and that we, as Americans, believe in the separation of Church and State."

You mean like "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and unto to God what is God’s"?

As for what this site is about, established categories are located in the right side panel, and the mission statement is featured prominently at the top. Make sure you are in the right room.

Well, firstly perhaps because I was raised in the Catholic faith I tend to consider, maybe erroneously, Church and Religion different things, or at least not exactly the same.

Secondly, IMHO the roots of the principle of separation between Church and State might be traced back to those religious concepts that set man as the center of everything in the Western culture. It is somewhat unthankful and futile trying to deny ideas that have influenced our culture for two thousand years and that have gave birth to our advanced societes and ample freedoms. It is the attitude of a spoiled teenager driving his father's car, having no idea of how much it has cost.

BTW, full Rationalism cannot exclude religion, because, as Albert Einstein said, the most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is comprehensible.

And who made a comprehensible world? Who made mathematics? Who gave us the power to tame our environment, the power that makes us the center of everything? I have no rational answer for that.

Exactly. Why does the natural world behave in such an orderly and predictable manner in so many ways? "Just happened" strikes me as a less-candid version of "I dunno."

PS, I've ordered a copy of the book that started the discussion. Looking forward to reading it. Thanks for the tip.

Does she address the question of whether Jesus even existed? I am impressed by the similarity of the gospel story to pagan narratives regarded as wholly mythical, and the paucity of independent references to Jesus in the works of the 1st century AD.

#4 from Nortius Maximus at 10:17 pm on Jun 13, 2008

TOC, I thought the grocery store was about groceries but I found flashlights and household repair items there. I plan on giving the manager a good talking-to about how he's violating the bedrock retail principle of separation of food and tools.

Are you sure you were not in a supermarket or a convenience store?

Edited for exposition.

TOC, apparently I was being too indirect for you. I guess I need to explain. {Heavy sigh}

You seem to have thought Winds of Change was a "grocery store" {politics-only site}, so the "flashlights and home repair products" {"spiritual" / sky god content} confused (or upset?) you.

It was something called a figure of speech, and my use of the first person pronoun was intended to soften the criticism.

I believe you know -- knew -- that and were trying to ding me for a technical distinction that was actually a deliberate part of the original point I was making (too subtly, I guess).

"I" (you) walked into a supermarket (a small one, I suggest modestly) and got annoyed it wasn't a grocery store. Hey, I could see the fresh produce from the window outside! This is an OUTRAGE!

Someone who indicates that the presence of occasional posts here with some relevance to (or even, gasp, appreciation of) religion constitutes advocation of the abolition of separation of church and state just might have a hair trigger on the topic.

Or maybe you were just having a bad day and popping off. Everyone does it sometimes. Nobody's perfect.

Cheerio,

Nort

mitchell porter (#11)

Christianism wasn't set as a formal religion until the First Council of Nicea, 325 AD, that is, it was developed during 300 years as a clandestine creed. From the historic point of view, it is possible, and probable, that during that time absorbed ideas from other religions, evolving from the initial judaic heresy it was.

Regarding the question of Jesus Christ as a historic figure, just taking into account how acute was the culture conflict between Greeks and Jews (that finally ended in an open rebellion against Rome) and how polarized both societies were, IMHO it is quite probable that He existed.

In fact, He wasn't the only one. As the Bible says, those turbulent years saw others, like St. John the Baptist.

"Does she address the question of whether Jesus even existed? I am impressed by the similarity of the gospel story to pagan narratives regarded as wholly mythical, and the paucity of independent references to Jesus in the works of the 1st century AD."

Given how few 1st century documents survive, this is hardly surprising.

The state of your scholarship is about 100 years old. Given the 20th century archaelogical developments, its very difficult to maintain the notion of a mythical Jesus in the face of the increasing acceptance of early dates for the gospels and letters of Paul. Lately, I'm not aware of any scholars which advance it, and the majority of proponents of it still advancing it aren't historians but mystics of one sort or another with thier own religious agendas.

I think some of this discussion should inform Iraq policy, specifically, our impatience with the rate of political reconciliation or military advances by the Iraqi government.

Was it Peter who answered Jesus that he should "forgive his brother" seven times, and Jesus who admonished Peter to forgive "seventy times seven" times? It seems to me that a lot of the New Testament that seems odd to us impatient Americans (three strikes seems to be the current norm) is SOP in even the modern Middle East.

Now take Nouri Al-Maliki . . . please! Hasn't the standard narrative been that he has been accomodating, even appeasing of Sadr and others? Mr. Maliki is not a Christian and doesn't follow the seventy times seven forgiveness (i.e. unlimited for all practical purposes), but he is Middle Eastern of the Shia profession, and I am sure that he is following a moral code to offer seven chances or whatever the proper number is.

What we have seen as weakness is running through the seven times -- the supposed wimpoid pleas to militia fighters to turn in their arms with nothing happening. I think what we are seeing is that Mr. Maliki is giving his "brothers", his co-religionists, the formulaic seven iterations of forgiveness. When that well runs dry, whammo, Mr. Maliki is going to take charge, and we are finally seeing that happen.

#13 from Nortius Maximus at 9:09 pm on Jun 15, 2008

The grocery store metaphor was bad enough without belaboring it further. As has been pointed out above, there are plenty of categories where this thread would be a better fit. That, I would imagine, would be the purpose of the categories. By the way, I never went into the grocery store. That was your foray.

TOC:

First rule of holes: When you're in one, stop digging.

As has been mentioned by Celebrim in #7, when one actually looks at the WoC categories, one finds this entry in "HUMANITY: Judaism", presently top of the list there.

Further discussion of whether this subject is off topic for WoC is off topic for this thread. Verb. sap.