George Carlin of all people said it best, feminists are interested in one thing, their own pocket books. Screw the rest of womankind.

I wouldn't vote for Al Sharpton because he was a Democrat

That's the only reason?????

Sometimes you have to exaamine fundamentals. Perhaps it is better to keep people at home and export hope to them. Taking people out of their homeland and puting them into a society where they are not equiped to cope is no favor to them or to that society.

Wrong thread Max!

"Where is the outrage on the part of feminists here and there?"

This is a tiresome blogging technique.

Why don't you investigate and find out whether there is, in fact, outrage in Sweden about this? Or whether this issue has been covered in the US?

Robin, Malmo is co-located with the University of Lund. I think campus rape statistics may be skewing the data. We have a higher incidence of rape on campuses in this country.

True, Copenhagen has a smaller immigrant population, but it is also a center for legalized prostitution, and not a university town.

Praktike,

The feminists in the US have plenty of time and media resources for Larry Summers, a man who hasn't actually done anything wrong. (or on the LAT, for another example). No extensive research necessary to confirm that.

It's fair, I think, to suggest that the lack of similar media exposure for actual outrages rather than imagined ones is the result of rather revealing decisions made by those feminists.

OK, I read the article.
Nowhere does it state that Swedish rapes were perpetrated by ethnic minorities.
The article cites statistics from Denmark and Norway, and the singleton case of the four muslim men Robin mentions, to imply that Swedish rapes are being perpetrated by muslims.

Where are the statistics on ethnicity of Swedish rapists? Not, apparently, in that article. You cannot simply extrapolate from neighboring countries and imply it must be the same.

Even if the statistics are being suppressed by Swedish authorities.

"I think that’s great news, says Anna Gustafsson, head of the Domestic Violence Unit at the Malmö Police. She suggests that the increase is due to the fact that women who otherwise wouldn’t press charges for rape now choose to contact the police."

One might agree with this response if the rise in statistics was for rape only. However that does not seem to be the case.

"Virtually every kind of violent crime is on the rise. Robberies have increased with 50 % in Malmö only during the fall of 2004. Threats against witnesses in Swedish court cases have quadrupled between 2000 and 2003."

When presented with this kind of evidence I would have to ask if the same logic holds true for these crimes as well. My first inclination would be to say no but the sticky wicket of blaming the rise on immigrants weighs heavy in calculations.

One must assume that the same crimes are committed against the immigrants themselves. Without a past history of the immigrants (whence they came and effectiveness of their laws) it is hard to say if they are not just now realizing they have recourse.

Before I really get hammered here I want to make clear that in no way am I advocating any of the crimes committed against the populace. The worst crime of all in my book is the violation of a child regardless of gender. What remains to be seen is what the Swedish government will do about it.

Am I outraged? Absolutely! Should these atrocities be publicized and hammered home to ensure actions are taken? Damn right! Other than expressing outrage and keeping the issue front and center there isn't much anyone on this side of the pond can do about it.

Jinderella, Malmo is in Sweden. IIRC it has the largest immigrant population, by far, of any city in Sweden.

The number of rape charges per capita in Malmö is 5 – 6 times that of Copenhagen, Denmark. Copenhagen is a larger city, but the percentage of immigrants is much lower. And it’s not just the rape statistics that reveal a scary increase in Malmö or Sweden.

Virtually every kind of violent crime is on the rise. Robberies have increased with 50 % in Malmö only during the fall of 2004.

Your point about whether the immigrants realize they have recourse under Swedish law is a good one, but it also misses the point a little. The intimidation factor is significant, whether or not people believe they have a theoretical right under the law. Unless and until the Swedish authorities take practical steps to reduce the crime rate, there's a significant problem there.

This is an issue Winds has covered before, it isn't unique to Sweden, and it does seem to trace pretty clearly to immigrant populations.

Rapes also seem correlated with Muslim immigrant populations, which is not surprising given a shari'a legal code and cultural norms that treat rape as (a) the woman's fault; (b) with standards of evidence that make convinction of the male nearly impossible; and © not such a big deal even if convicted. For other articles we've run, see:

• Europe: Tolerating Intolerance - wherein some leftist ninny discusses rape as a form of cultural expression, to sdilence from his colleagues. (July 24, 2002)
• More on Islam, Rape and 'Multiculturalism' (July 25, 2002)
• Europe: Muslims, Immigration, & Backlash (July 26, 2002)

The role of women is thus likely to be an ongoing focus of what I'll call the "Pim Fortuyn debates" about socialization and standards. The "drip irrigation" nature of that shift makes it slow, but if you look you can see it starting. Indeed, a steady drumbeat of focus on what Jinnderella calls "freeing the slave class" of the Islamic world is likely to have benefits beyond the region, as the debate will inevitably shine a spotlight into Europe and stimulate socialization and standards debates there as well. If the USA gets a President Hilary one day, this might be her biggest potential contribution to the war (of course, others are also capable of holding this banner.)

This is arguably a contribution that American feminists could make to the war right now. Having said that, one of the thing you notice quickly is that many prominent feminists in 3rd World countries say they find Western feminism alienating (Moroccan feminists, who recently won an important political victory, are a prominent and representative example). So cooperation is a bit strained, and sometimes even avoided on the receiving end. Still, there are feminist organizations in North America who are out there trying. Like the support that many pro-lifers give to adoption programs and support for young mothers, these exist but aren't trumpeted much and so go unnoticed.

It's fair to note the cognitive dissonance on feminists' "politically correct" radar screens when it comes to acknowledging the problems Robin describes. It's also fair to notice when prominent feminists like Sunera Thobani go out and shill for the Taliban, or when feminist organizations devote real effort to "anti-war"/other side demonstrations but seem much less interested in public action on behalf of women in Muslim countries. All of that is fair, but all demand specific instances. Unless that last case can be made, noting that there's little outrage in America over the situation in Malmo is indeed sort of pointless.

But what about debates inside Sweden itself?

Is Sweden's political class ready for this debate, about to be forced into it, or too sclerotic to address it? Are Swedish feminists and their leftist colleagues making it an issue, ignoring it, or publishing works to excuse it under the banner of non-judgmental "diversity" insanity?

I can't say, but I agree with praktike that it would be interesting to know. Maybe Marten Barck of WATCH/ has some thoughts...

Hmm, I re-read Fjordman's blog post linked in Robin's article. On a closer read, I'd say he has a decent case that Swedish feminists are in fact silent on this issue (or even explaining it as a positive development, without losing their jobs).

He's right to ask why.

Is feminism (a) about the safety, security, and dignity of women? Or is it (b) about preaching leftist dogmas first and foremost? Institutionally, the answer seems to be B in a whole lot of places... of which Sweden may be a good example.

Having said that, I'd still be interested in poking under the surface to see what kind of dissent may be bubbling. This problem won't go away, which means the pressure will continue to build. Which means that at some point, the debate will be launched. The early signs are probably out there, and visible to a keen observer.

Will Swedish feminists be leading that debate, and demanding action? Or will they be dragged in, with many found on the other side?

The Winds of Change come to us all. Even in cold climes like mine, where the winters are long.

Look, Robin, you just can't say this--
Rapes commited by Muslim men in Sweden
fjordman's article cites crime statistics committed by ethnic minorities in Denmark and Norway. Are those ethnic minorities Muslim? Doen't say. You can hypothesize that based on immigration figures, but both you and fjordman have to call it hypothesizing.
It may be Sweden is suppressing the data. So? You just can't make those correlations based on the information in fjordman's article.

Malmo and Copenhagen have vastly different population sizes and make-up. Copenhagen is far more commercial, a port city and tourist attraction, and there are probably many more jobs for unskilled workers there. Malmo, what i know of it, is a technology center that feeds off the University of Lund, and surrounded by farm land. You and fjordman are using oversimplified models, while the real cause and effect may rely on "hidden" variables, like unemployment, rather than Islam. It may not, but what if some research reveals that an employment program would stop the crime wave far more effectively than deporting Muslims?

It is very true that i believe freeing the "slave class" of women in Islam is important, and also that that is happening. More rapes being reported is probably part of that. But i also detest sloppy statistics and opinion presented as fact. What good does that do? It is just inflammatory and draws attention away from potential solutions.

Celebrate diversity.

This is a good example of something I call "statistical hysteria". A lot of the argument about "eurabia" (Colt, i am using the colloquial meaning, and not Bat Ye'or's definition) is treated in the same fashion, with no actual population data to support the eventual muslimization of Europe.

To look at a post where statistics are treated responsibly see Randy MacDonald's The Allochtonen Are Leaving
Although Randy and I had previously both believed that eurabia scenarios may possibly be exaggerated based on analysis of available data, this current dutch immigration has wiped out any population gain that might have occurred via live births to the indigenous population.

So, perhaps we will have to change our minds. ;)

AND, feminism is an empty purse. Where is the outrage over honor killings in South America, ritual mutilation in Africa, battered women in the US?

No, feminists decry Larry Summers. Do you know the real reason? Part of Haaarvaaad is being forced to move offices across the river to less attractive digs-- Larry has the final say on who goes and who stays-- petty, viscious, academic politics.

Who among us XX will say we are a feminist now? Feminism is a sad joke, concerned only with quotas, politcal correctness, and affirmative action.

Jinderella, I'm pretty aware of correct use of statistics (it's part of what I teach and use professionally). You're certainly right that the post I put up and the one I referenced doesn't make the full case.

I don't have time today at all to go research this, but IIRC Malmo's population is strongly immigrant and those immigrants are overwhelmingly from Muslim countries. I'll see if I can dig up the numbers over the weekend.

Rape is rape wherever it is committed. It is an act of violence. I suggest they take their cue from the Chinese Communists in 1948. They shot on sight all the addicts. Change their laws to make it punishable by death for everybody.

That said feminists everywhere should be outraged period. Silence is not golden. It's a crime of abetment.

Robin, I said the article by fjordman did not make the case, I know you are a scientist and would never knowingly abuse statistics. My beef with fjordman's article is that it follows the pattern of disinformation so prevelant on the left, you know, Quagmire! Disaster! Failure! when a careful perusal of the data reveals just the opposite. Data is neutral.

I could have accepted fjordman's conclusions if he 1) delineated the ethnic makeup of the criminals in Norway and Denmark, and 2) addressed the lack of Swedish data as supporting his hypothesis that the data is being suppressed and that swedish rapists are muslims in general.

Have you considered that the actual number of muslim immigrants in Copenhagen may be equal to the number in Malmo, given that immigrant numbers are shown as a percentage of the population, and Copenhagen is much larger? I've been to Malmo and Copenhagen, they are very different cities.

In the context of Eurabia, have you seen this statistic anywhere?
Turks and Moroccans were especially likely to remain in their homelands in 2004. Arrivals from those countries fell by 40%, from 11,600 in 2003 to 6,800 in 2004. "

Just because we are on the side of the angels, doesn't give us the right to ignore data that does not support our cause, or to pick and choose statistics to create inflammatory statements.

"I don't have time today at all to go research this, but IIRC Malmo's population is strongly immigrant and those immigrants are overwhelmingly from Muslim countries. I'll see if I can dig up the numbers over the weekend."

Normally, one would try to do that sort of thing BEFORE levelling charges.

Joe, re: the Taliban, it was feminists who pushed US policy against them, and you know this. Now, are U.S. feminists as fully engaged on gender issues in the MENA as they could be? No. But is making things up the way to engage them? I'm doubtful.

One more thing-- the Swedes are different. I know quite a few, presumeably fjordman knows some. In Sweden you have to have a license to play golf. Perhaps, instead of suppressing data, the Swedes are actually digging for proximate causes. What if the jump in crime rates correlates more strongly with %population under 20 or %population unemployed than it does with %population muslim?

Also, while it is now illegal to hunt with "dogs" in the UK, in Sweden you cannot hunt without one. Just a bit of trivia.

Joe, re: the Taliban, it was feminists who pushed US policy against them, and you know this.

citation?

For your edification in the Progress of Feminism over the past while, and Potential Future Accomplishments Thereof, the always excellent Steve Sailer, with the Larry Summers Show

Here's a taste:

Modern feminism and modern decadence are results of the same general trend. Feminism emerged at the end of the 1960s precisely because the cultural leaders of the era had rebelled against the traditions that had made Western Civilization such an incubator of geniuses for over 500 years— above all, the preference for truth over ideology.

citation?

Taliban by Ahmed Rashid.

Praktike,

I've specifically noted above that feminist organization have been active abroad, and that this was not hyped and so often not recognized. Some of that has included work in Afghanistan, vid. the Feminist Majority Foundation

But let's recall. 1998 - push for non-recognition of the Taliban (wasn't in the cards anyway), and no go-ahead on the infamous Afghan gas pipeline (not in the cards anyway). Removal of the Taliban? No.

That doesn't make feminists leaders in the USA's anti-Taliban policy.

My more vivid recollection, and that of many others, is feminist groups joining "anti-war"/other side coalitions in the wake of 9/11 (which provoked a REAL anti-Taliban policy) to oppose the Taliban's removal - and then to predict/cheer for U.S. failure. Thobani was the loudest example, but not the only one. That isn't making things up.

That other feminist organizations may be working toward useful goals in post-war Afghanistan (while still disparaging the military that makes it possible) doesn't cancel out the legitimate questions about the official feminist movement as a whole and its role to date in the GWOT. Malmo is only part of the puzzle.

But even seen entirely in its own terms, one reads reading Fjordman's article and wonders. He descibes official inaction, refusal to confront or show moral clarity, and blatant double-talk on this issue without an outraged and very public response from Sweden's feminist community.

That isn't making things up either.

You know, call me crazy, but this stuff in Malmo looks like a problem to me. It is not being made into a major issue, by groups that have the power to do so in Sweden if they so choose. Why the hell not?

While I'd like to know more, for all the reasons and in all the ways I mention in comments #11 and #12... it isn't unreasonable to be asking some hard questions, and noting some patterns. While remaining open to, and interested in, further evidence.

Something I ran across while googling. Be sure to follow the Washington Post link...

Feminists and the War Against the Taliban

Looks like the various flavors of feminists supported the Afghanistan war to differing degrees. It would appear that some were more concerned about domestic political considerations.

praktike, are you referring to the March 2001 edition or the resubtitled October 2001 edition? Do you know what changes in content were made?

Joe, read fjordman's title--
Muslim Rape Epidemic in Norway and Sweden
He doesn't even prove it for Norway.
Ethnic minorities!==muslims

How does he know there isn't attention being paid to this and outrage over it?

• !== not identically equal to

"That doesn't make feminists leaders in the USA's anti-Taliban policy."

At the time, it sure as hell does.

"Malmo is only part of the puzzle.

But even seen entirely in its own terms, one reads reading Fjordman's article and wonders. He descibes official inaction, refusal to confront or show moral clarity, and blatant double-talk on this issue without an outraged and very public response from Sweden's feminist community.

That isn't making things up either.

You know, call me crazy, but this stuff in Malmo looks like a problem to me. It is not being made into a major issue, by groups that have the power to do so in Sweden if they so choose. Why the hell not?

While I'd like to know more, for all the reasons and in all the ways I mention in comments #11 and #12... it isn't unreasonable to be asking some hard questions, and noting some patterns. While remaining open to, and interested in, further evidence."

You're crazy. Get the evidence FIRST.

I came across this website and was interested in its broad coverage, despite the fact that it doesn't match my political views, until I saw this post. Why not just post, "They're coming for our women!"

Isn't there enough tribal hatred and racism in the world, without us trying? Don't you know the history of its consequences? What do you want for your grandchildren, world wars and genocides or peace and prosperity. What are you acheiving by attempting to inflame hatred?

I know it's all very exciting to post these things, but this isn't a game or an action movie. This is real life with very real consequences for millions all over the world. Act as if you care about the consequences of your actions.

Strange.

No posts about Mukhtar Mai. Where's the outrage?

Where, indeed.

Funny you should mention her, just saw the story in my local paper today about the Pakistani court overturning the convictions of her 4 attackers.

Given that this whole thing happened fully in public, the effect is to declare open season on women in Pakistan. And yes, it's an outrage to any civilized human being.

I could also point to this story from Germany, which demonstrates how the same attitudes and norms that led to Mai's ordeal are turning up in Europe on a regular basis - and leading to violence.

It isn't uncommon. It IS a problem. It is NOT being addressed, and ignoring that fact will result in more of the same.

I'd rather be one of the people shining a light on it unflinchingly, in order to make it stop. How about you? (P.S. Act like we care about the consequences of our actions, "accidental tourist"? Have a look in the mirror, and take your own advice.)

I'm working on a followup post to this one, in response to the request for detailed stats. It's a long post and won't be done in time to put up before our Good News Saturday, so look for it on Sunday or Monday.

Isn't there enough tribal hatred and racism in the world, without us trying? Don't you know the history of its consequences? What do you want for your grandchildren, world wars and genocides or peace and prosperity. What are you acheiving by attempting to inflame hatred?

I know it's all very exciting to post these things, but this isn't a game or an action movie. This is real life with very real consequences for millions all over the world. Act as if you care about the consequences of your actions.

I do, which is why I'll be writing a lot more on this topic -- including the way in which white supremacists have already leveraged the rape issue for their own propaganda purposes.

My advice is to be as careful as a fellow blogger named Charles Bird will be from now on.

Part one of my longer article on rape in Sweden is up now. Part two will be posted on Sunday or Monday.

I linked to you from my article Fewer Rapes in Muslim Countries

[Comment deleted by A.L.]