... in the birthrate.

This last legislative move pretty much underlines the Spanish commitment to demographic suicide.

Which leads to the question, if we succeed in Iraq and establish democracy and a modus vivendi with Islam, how will we react decades later to the peaceful, demographic takeover of Europe by people who parctice Islam?

Which take over? The Arab/Persian/Turkish birthrate isn't particulary high either.

Muslim birthrates in Europe are VERY high; around 5-6 children per family. Much much lower for Europeans.

Given the total failure to assimilate; and anti-modern attitudes/culture of the immigrants (gay bashing, violence towards women, intolerance of other religions, hatred of secularism).

Spain? Huge demonstrations against the Socialists and Zapatero making deals with ETA terrorists. But Gandelman won't tell you that because terrorists=good for him.

Gay marriage as a divider? I don't think most of Spain is enthusiastic about Gay marriage, any more than say Massachussets generally is in favor, as opposed to say Politicians pandering to Liberal activists.

The biggest divide IMHO will be attitudes towards terror; reportedly bin Laden is in Iran getting medical treatment. Europeans won't sign on for any action to get him; most Americans would be in support of raising another Army and just flattening the country anyway to get bin Laden.

In a sense, Americans are Israelis now. Israel has gay pride marches and topless beaches, but they are very different from Europeans. They are hated around the world for who they are (not what they do) and will, unlike Europeans, fight in their defense.

Not only birthrates are high, so are imigration rates. And Europe will need a lot of unskilled labor to take care of its elderly population. It won't be Europeans emptying bedpans. Migration is as present as the wind. The Euros have not found out how to live with it. They will have to destroy it or be destroyed by it. That is the bigest difference between us.

Muslim birthrates in Europe are VERY high

Are you sure about that or are you just sprouting some opinion. They seem to have 2 to 3 children (not surprising as having more children is much more trouble). Only reason they have a somewhat higher birthrate is that they marry slightly more.

Given the total failure to assimilate;

Actually assimilation seems to be going well with East Assians being the most difficult to assimilate. But the North Africans give the most trouble at this moment. You equate trouble with not assimilating while historically trouble and assimilation go hand in hand.

reportedly bin Laden is in Iran getting medical treatment.

Is this from the same guy who said Iraq had nukes?

Not only birthrates are high, so are imigration rates.

They are both lower than those of Mexicans. So how is your Spanish?

Muslim birthrates in Europe are VERY high;

It isn't. Slightly larger than average but that is mostly due to higher pecentage of marriages

Given the total failure to assimilate;

Assimilation is going great but, as almost always, is accompenied by trouble.

Reportedly bin Laden is in Iran getting medical treatment.

Is this from the same source as the one who said that Saddam had nukes?

Not only birthrates are high, so are imigration rates.

Mexicans have higher rates of both, So how is your Spanish?

I can't point to a specific article to cite, but from generalized surfing here and there, my impression is that birth-rates among Muslims may be going down. I believe they still tend to be higher than Europeans -- say, 3 or 4 children per family -- but not the astronomical 10 or 12 children per Muslim family you would see 20 years ago. I'm assuming this may be a combination of peer pressure and wanting to fit it with what everyone else is doing (or not doing), economic pressure in that it's really really hard to feed that many mouths, and women's liberation, as the Muslim brood mares look around and discover they don't have to be spending their whole adult life having morning sickness.

It seems to me, too, that various European countries are in the process of enacting legislation that will force assimilation: immigrants have to agree to learn the local language, or instance, and they won't be allowed to bring their extended families to join them in their own little personal ghetto's. Whether this is too little, too late remains to be seen.

It is more the fact that the number of kids that fit in a car is limited. 4 is about the absolute maximum you can fit in a car. They also didn't have the 10 to 12 children 20 years ago (outside rare cases) For that you have to marriage young and not be a migrant worker.

You can not assimmilate by law. I even think that it is counter productive. Besides the groups that produce the most trouble are also the groups that assimilated the fastest (But assimilation just takes a long time)

In response to comment #7, which stated:
"Assimilation is going great but, as almost always, is accompenied by trouble."

Ahhhahhahhaa! LOL! Have you ever been to France?
Why don't you go to a Banlieu in North Paris and tell the Arabs there how well the have assimilated. Then they can show you how well they have assilimated by sawing your head off.

For those that don't know a banlieu is the French name for these giant socialist apartment ghettos where most immigrants live. And even the Gendarmes don't go into those banlieus unless the have a convoy and armored cars. The crime rates there aren't even reported.

Maybe you can trick some Americans by lying out your arse like that, but anyone who is from the continent just has to laugh at your statement Mr. commentor #7.

Gay marriage...the end of Fraga's career? Unthinkable. But — no matter how people view each issue — these are definitely signs of change in Spain a country that has experienced a sea of change.

Ho ho ho ho ho ho

I'll tell my friends about this. We'll laugh together.

How could I explain it in a few words? The problem in Spain is precisely the contrary. The society has been unable to overcome Francoism yet. The people are still used to be cowed and follow the ruler (before dictator and before king). It lacks criticism, it lacks free enterprise, it lacks a free media, it lacks a sound conception of Civil Rights... (a regional law had to be appealed by UK-German expatriates before EU instances)

Francoism is rampant, and its heirs are also in the Socialist Party, like Huarte, a former Falange (Fascists) hardliner. That may explain their authoritarian ways and some of their policies.

Only a few bother to complain as long as economic growth continues.

Gay marriage, and what may be worse, adoption by gay couples, is just a gesture, a sketch for the circus. As it is the next Constitutional reform. In the end the society is still what Franco set up, exception the nationalist corners where it comes closer to Hitler's.

By the way, Franco said that Fraga would never get a post above minister. He was right.

Do they speak French? yup, better than the average Mexican speaks English in East LA. It is proof that the are being assimilated at quiet a fast pace. You could argue that it is slower than you want to see it happen but that is something else than that the assimilation is slow. It just is a process that takes a few human generations.

banlieu is were the underclass lives of which immigrants are, as often, a large part. The child prostitution ring lived IIRC also in a banlieu.

In response to comment #12:
The abliity to speak French is more a legecy of French colonial activity, since most of those Arabs come from former French colonies where French is still taught in schools.

Perhaps a better gauge of assimilation is what the immigrants think of their host counties. I would guess that most Mexicans think of the USA as an opportunity and don't want to murder its citizens. The majority of Arab immigrants in France despise France and violence is a big part of their culture.

Just look at what they did to the Pied-noir, people that they lived with for many generations. Just look at the omnipresent grafetti in France. When one drives around an average American city one does not see graffeti everywhere that says in spanish 'death to America'.

Only Frenchman suffering complete denial would apply the term 'assimilation' to Arabs in France. You are trying to portray things in a way that is simply not correct.

Pied-noir, people that they lived with for many generations.

They didn't live with them but were bossed around by them. Not exactly the same.

When one drives around an average American city one does not see graffeti everywhere that says in spanish 'death to America'.

First every American can read Spanish and the smarter ones can understnad what it means. Unlike Arab which for most French people is just weird letters.
Second. Death to America is not something you should write and expect to life but they write things which come down to the same.

Only Frenchman suffering complete denial would apply the term 'assimilation' to Arabs in France.

Assimilation is just a slow process. Will take 80 years when it is fast. If you look at it in that way than the Arabs assimilate fast in France.

Essayist Theodore Dalrymple penned a piece back in 2002 called The Barbarians at the Gates. The picture he paints of the poverty-stricken Arab suburbs (banlieues; cite's) that surround Paris, Marseilles, Lyons, and other French cities is not a pretty one. It does not support a rosy view of Arab/Islamic 'assimilation' in France or the EU.

This article and ones like it are often ignored, but in the ~3 years since it was published, I'm not aware of any serious rebuttals to the major points Dalrymple raised. His concerns are shared by Orianna Falacci, among others.

Worth a read.

AFAIK French (and Germans) receive money from the government for each child they have as raising costs. I am not sure, but I heard something about €100 per month. That is, with six you may get half a wage. In my opinion that is the underlying problem. Some inmigrant families that cannot find jobs use public subventions as a way to earn money (of course, they don't spend that money in their sons and daughters, who grow in a pretty nasty environment). Thus this problem is a combination of cultural values, economic stagnation and the welfare state.

On the other side, and at least among Spaniards, it is pretty clear why the birthrate is down: if you get pregnant, sometimes you loose a promotion opportunity, but usually you are fired. And to get another job here is not so easy than it is in America.

I think cultural values have much to do, but the main reasons are economical.

of course, they don't spend that money in their sons and daughters, who grow in a pretty nasty environment

That is nasty to say. May i ask where they than spend the money on.

ps. You have to be real poor (or a real bad "parent") for the child money you get to be more than what you spend extra because of a child.