""If a man is found stealing one of his brothers, of the people of Israel, and if he treats him as a slave or sells him, then that thief shall die. So you shall purge the evil from your midst."    (Deuteronomy 24:7 ESV)"

This Deuteronomy quote is hardly instrumental -- and in general, the Old Testament cannot be used in anti-racist argument, as it is, when read literally (which is how an awful number of people read it, and moreover, since unlike the Gospels, it does not readily lend itself to figurative interpretation) itself rather racist in its positioning of Jews as The Chosen and the rest as, ahem, not quite as valuable. After all, the Confederates did not propose that the whites enslave one another : only the blacks -- as a "dependent race" -- were to be handled this way. In fact, it can be used to debunk the author's argument -- if we take the white Christians as the new "people of Israel", a Chosen race, and blacks as, say, Canaanites.

In Louisiana, the flag means one thing first and foremost, "fuck n*****s."

It's about that simple.

I see the flag of the Confederacy not as a symbol of slavery, but as a symbol of dreams built on lies. The Southern Version of the American Dream was a sham, and hundreds of thousands died to preserve that illusion. I see the flag as a memento to the destructive capacity of self-delusionment.

The problem with the argument that the Civil War was over states rights ("freedom"), not slavery, is that it convienently ignores that there wouldn't have been such a conflict between state and federal power, had the division over slavery not been so intractable. If it were about freedom, the Confederacy could have achieved that by seceding, and at the same time declaring slavery abolished within the seceding states.

As well, a division over states rights would have had a much more "checkerboard" pattern of states seceding and staying in the Union. Yet, oddly enough, all of the seceding states were slave states; a couple of slave states stayed in the Union, but most were free.

Perhaps the flyers of the Stars-and-Bars do feel a sense of patriotism, but one has to wonder, patriotism to what? Certainly not to the United States of America, considering the CSA was set up as a rejection of the Union of the nation. IMHO "Lost Cause" ideology and patriotism to the USA are fundamentally at odds with each other.

You know, I sometimes think that these types of things are all clearly symbolic, clearly emotional.

The Stars and Bars has always had great emotional resonances for me. I remember as a child, so many great country music cookouts, where this flag was up. (I've said it before here, but I grew up in Texas.)

I remember weddings, (with the stars and bars up in corner), with great, lively country bands - lots of dancing, laughing, and smiling - and of course, at one point, would come "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down". Everyone would stand up, there would be a lot of hand-holding in couples, guys shouldering up and everyone joining in...I remember bawling at the top of my lungs, with everyone else "...they should never have taken the very best!!"

Emotionally, those are great memories.

It's a weird thing I guess. I remember feeling the pride, a sense of communal mourning, feeling the much bigger celebration in spite of mourning, and most importantly, I guess, the feeling of coming together with everybody.

Being the democrat that I am, what the Confederate flag stands for, is absolutely wrong. Clearly.

But I just can't get real excited against it. It was never an associate with hate, in terms of the flag itself. Just the communal experience, which was great (although clearly there was a lot of racism around me.)

Intellectually, I get it. But emotionally, it was different.

Sometimes bad people ruin a symbol, as he mentioned in his post, the swastika is a fine example of this. In most places in the world at this point, at the very least in the West, displaying a swastika if you aren't a Nazi is a reckless thing to do. Even if your intention is to communicate something else, you'll simply frighten and deeply offend large groups of people, or at the very least really confuse them. The name Adolph: ruined. That little tiny mustache: ruined (thankfully-yuck!)

JC's comments make a lot of sense to me. The rebel flag doesn't mean much to me either way, (I'm one of those Northern Virginians whom neither the North nor South will claim) but I have no desire to offend or frighten people, or to even make people wonder about what it means to me, so I stay away from it.

Having grown up in a very diverse and quite harmonious community - it was basically 50/50 blacks to whites in my high school in DC- I have been very surprised by the lack of racial harmony in NC. That lack of harmony, from what I have seen, is very much kept alive by people of both races, sadly. I suspect that many whites who put that flag on their car are people who are, ironically, frustrated by this tension and often feel that they are being blamed for something that happened before they were born. I understand that frustration, but I would still want to be part of the solution.

I'm not exactly sure why anyone, be they black or white, who isn't actually a racist would want to pick that scab. Clearly it will take much longer than one generation to undo the damage done over hundreds of years, but why keep any of that alive if you can help it?

The Southern apologia that secession was not mainly about slavery was a postwar Southern invention. Such rationales were absent from prewar rhetoric. (I am a native-born Southerner, btw, and live in the South still.)

James McPherson, author of the award winning book, Battle Cry of Freedom (considered the best single-volume history of the Civil War), wrote that slavery was not the sole cause of the war, but was the issue without which the war would not have been fought.

I posted a long essay about the other end of the war, though: "War and reconciliation: only in America? Why did the Civil War not carry on?"

What other symbols of the Confederacy should we get upset about?

Southern troops sometimes fought under their state flags, Should we get upset those flags? Or how about statues honoring Confederate soldiers scattered in thousands of southern towns, should they be removed? In some southern states, a few counties changed their name to honor Confederate leaders. In my home state of Georgia there are counties named Gordon & Toombs. Some southern states have an official Confederate Memorial Day. Various camps of the SCV and Daughters of the Confederacy hold meetings in government buildings such as libraries.

Some US military bases are named after Confederate heros...Should Barksdale AFB have to change it's name? or Ft Hood? or Ft Benning? or Ft AP Hill?

All of those things listed above in one way or another honor the same thing that the CBF does. Should we treat anything Confederate the way Germany today does with Nazi items and outlaw it?

BTW, before I get called a rebel lover, let me say I think the south was wrong, Lincoln was the greatest President this country has had & the right side won the war (luckily for the world too I say.)

There's nothing wrong with recognizing real heroism in an enemy. Robert E. Lee was widely admired even at the time, and Union policy was to treat the rebel soldiers as Americans who had made a bad choice. They could and should be forgiven, and become loyal Americans again. Which they did. No need to change that. Living organizations, like the Daughters of the Confederacy, can do the same. And did.

I would think this attitude would be basic Christian charity, too, but I'll defer to Lamech on that one.

State flags are the state flags. If you're flying a slavery-era flag that has since been changed, it's legit to be asked why that is. Otherwise, after the war the states, like the soldiers, became part of America again with the Confederacy's dissolution.

So no, I don't get personally upset about any of the things you cited, nor do I believe them to be wrong. I can't see Lamech doing so either.

One can pardon a person, and let bygones be bygones, and honour their heroism. A state or organization involved in secession can come back into the Union, and that will be the end of it if they change. But neither of these options apply to the Confederate battle flag, which canot be forgiven or reabsorbed. Nor can it change what it stands for, because the dissolution of the Confederacy "freezes" all that in place.

That's what makes it different, and unique.

With respect to the state flag issue - my understanding is that the "stars and bars" have been incorporated into certain state flags, and that this dates not from the Civil War era but the Civil Rights era.

This would support Alice's accurate and appropriate "scab picking" metaphore, and SAO's less appropriate (but possibly even more accurate) assertions as well.

Donald Sensing,

All one need do is read say South Carolina's declaration of seccession to see how wedded seccesion and slavery were to each other.

Joe Katzman,

Have you ever read any of the DOC literature?

And the problem with Lee and other related figures has been that they have been romanticized into mythic figures who live outside the context of their actions, much like Che Guevara has been. For example, Lee is famous for seizing free blacks in Pennsylvania and sending 'down river' into slavery. Yet these sorts of events are erased from the historical narrative so as leave him an umblemished mythic figure. Whatever personal heroism Lee protrayed, the man fought on the wrong side of history for a monsterous regime; a regime which held in bondage four out of every nine of its citizens.

My reference to state flags was to states like Virginia whose current flag is the same design that has flown since before the ACW and it flew over troops along side the CBF.

An ironic thing to me: Here in Georgia when ex-Gov. Barnes changed the state flag and removed the CBF from it, the new (since replaced) design looked about 95% like the state flag that flew during the ACW (state seal on background of blue or red). Should I be upset now that the new Georgia state flag, while not having the CBF, is modeled after the what is known as the "First Confederate National" flag. BTW, the phrase "Stars and Bars" comes from the 1st National Flag not the CBF

You can actually read about the Confederate "Partisan" John S. Mosby's account of Gettysburg and see that he followed behind Lee doing various activities including rounding up blacks (freemen & escaped slaves). Generals like Wade Hampton were slave owners. You can say "Rommel was a great general" but he wasn't an owner of a concentration camp either. Barksdale and Benning were both politicians who led the charge for their respective states to leave the Union (for slavery, no matter how it was disguised,) yet the US Government honors them. But that's ok as long as no CBF is around?

I think that at time the arguments over the CBF can reach a hysterical/hypocritical stage. I've always thought the CBF was protected speech and that if anybody should have a problem with it is only when it's used or incorporated within by a government, such as in a state flag or the CBF flying on public(government controlled) property. So, if someone feels offended about CBF flying at a public building, shouldn't they be upset about anything that flag represents being on public property? You can have a statue honoring the dead who died, basically, trying to protect slavery in a public park but just don't put the CBF near it? Not many of the statues have "Dedicated to the poor fools who, no matter their beliefs, were fighting to protect slavery" inscribed on them. Most speak of the "Noble" or "Just" or "Lost" Cause.

In that post it was mentioned that the CBF is upsetting for millions of Americans. Not that I myself feel this way, but I could easily point out how millions of Americans could technically be upset over US flag.

I know it's very late to say this but your website is one I visit everyday, I do thank everyone involved for the work involved.

Sao argues That the Old Testament cannot be used in anti-racist argument because when it condemns man-stealing it only condemns it for stealing “brothers.”

A parallel verse: Exodus 21:16 "Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.” This verse does not limit kidnapping to only the people of Israel and further describes it as a capital crime (as does the code of Hammurabi.) The New Testament refers to it at 1 Tim 1:10 (men-stealers; kidnappers; slave-traders is what the word meant.)

Second, the truth is that the “*people of Israel*” is not a group based on race but is based on devotion to the God of Israel. However foreigners and slaves could become one of the people of Israel by conversion. Race is not the defining characteristic of the People of Israel.

My comment on SAO was not correct the comment should have addressed Warum.

I'm thrilled that each of you thought enough about this issue to comment. I appreciate that very much.

I am certainly not in favor of trying to erase all possible symbols of the Confederacy from public life, nor to scrub the names of all Confederates from public buildings and monuments.

The two critical issues I'm focusing on are the apparently willful ignoring of (1) the words of the secessionists, that their stated primary goal was the preservation of slavery, and (2) the words of the Bible which condemn kidnapping and forced labor with no hope of the captives regaining their freedom.

The set of people who have no problem with the Confederate battle flag as a positive symbol of freedom and honor, seems to overlap in practice strongly with the set of people who say American slavery is not forbidd3n by the God's Word. In my view it's a symptom of a larger problem, and outlawing the symbol doesn't cure the heart issue.

Say it with me: "God desires all people to be free. Free indeed."

the confederate flag is a symbol of hate. the southern states succeeded from the union for one reason!!!!!!! to protect their rights
The right to own property (people).founders of the confederacy wanted to protect slavery.....
1861 the "cornerstone address” confederate vice president Alexander H. Stephens declared that the new government’s "foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is natural and moral condition" so you tell me what the confederate flag stands for!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not a bad article, but also biased. Righfulyl said, slavery did have a part in the civil war, but also taxes and other major issues that our nation deals with still today. Keep in mind the "north" also had slaves, and sis until President Lincoln passed the Emancipation Proclaimation, also, the President himself enpregnated a black "servant". I'm not saying the south was not wrong and that slavery was the right way of doing things, I dont believe in slavery, nor do I believe the north was also right, I believe the nation as a whole had serious problems. The main problem was the south's main income export and product was agriculture, and becuase of the ecomnomic situation, as well as the taxes and tarrifs imposed by the federal government, slavery was "needed" for the farmers and plantation owners to make a profit. Also, not all slaves where black, but also Irish and Scottish, German as well as Catholics which the south has always disliked. also, please keep in mind it was the Africans that sold them into slavery, the muslims who had taken over most of Africa. So for someone to say they are offended when they see a confederate flag, and then turn around and change there name to an "islamic" name, or wear "traditional" african clothes, is a hypocrite... for those to are slave related, and to change your name from an "america" name to a "muslim/arabic" name to get rid of your "slave name" is trading one for another, and one for which when they had that name while they where still in Africa where treated far worse.

First of all, the civil war has been over for 140 years, the confederacy was a foreign nation that fought against the US and was soundly defeated. I was born and raised in the south and being of African descent when I see that flag I think of slavery, lynchings, the whole jim crow and segregation that my parents and all generations before them went through. What heritage are you celebrating? A bunch of drunk whites that want to go and scream racial nonsense when no one black is around? The CSA got their ass whopped and anyone who buys that "heritage" crap is an idiot. I personally would wipe my a$$ with the confederate flag. Also contrary to popular belief most Africans that were sold into bondage were not sold by fellow Africans. Starting in the late 1300's Arab traders started kidnapping Black Africans and selling them into bondage. The Catholic church condoned and sponsored raiding parties that resulted in thousands of Africans getting kidnapped from their homelands. Some African kingdoms sold pow's of other ethnic groups into slavery, but no slave ships nor plantations were owned by Africans so the blaming of the slave trade on Africans is stupid. Also the slavery that went on in Europe's past has no bearing on today. Every black person that lives in this country either directly or indirectly has been effected by slavery. Whether it be by stereotyping, disenfranchisement, or just plain racism, don't act like everything was fine after 1865, because it wasn't.

The southern states pulled out of the union because cotton was their main economic income and they did not want to give up slavery, considering the fact that slaves picked their cotton. The north became anti-slavery prior to the Civil War. The North had the stars and stripes flag and so the south created the stars and bars flag to use in battle as a rebel flag. The south's flag was too similar, so they came up with the "southern cross." The flag we know today. Regardless of the history in the south the flag was created to represent the south while fighting on a pro-slavery side in the war. When the southerners were creating the flag, they were trying to find symbols that represented superiority and slavery, then that's when they decided to use the "St. Andrew's Cross." Check your history guys or check out "Colors and Blood: Flag Passions of the Confederate South," written by Robert E. Bonner. The flag is a symbol of southern history and of pro-slavery toward blacks. Regardless, it's offensive!

The Confederate flag stands for states rights. It "states" that federal government can't control everyone like a monarchy.
P.S. the email and URL aren't correct. I made them up!

If yankees were so concerned about purging slaveowners from their midst, why didn't they purge themselves from people like U. S. Grant who owned slaves until 1868 like other northern slaveowners did since Lincoln didn't free them!!! The yankee gov't came south to beat up on an inferior people with the money they made from the slave trade in their pockets. Hypocrisy has never been worse.
Deo Vindice

Being proud of the rebel flag is the same as being in Al-Qaeda!
It means you hate freedom and America. The rebel flag is a symbol of a group of people who didn't want to be Americans. They seperated themselves from Americans and tried to destroy America and take it over. They killed American soldiers and burned American cities.
Anyone who flies a rebel flag should be considered an enemy combatant because they are showing pride and kinship in a movement that tried to destroy America and it's people.

The confederate government required regular people to register for domestic visa's so that they could travel from one confederate state to another. Someone from Florida who rode his horse to Georgia without the proper papers would be arrested and detained and forced to pay fines. No matter what his skin color was. That doesn't sound very free!

The confederate government tried to force states to give up money to be used at the discretion of Jefferson Davis without oversight by the confederate congress effectively making him a king who was taking money to use however he wanted. That would be taxation without representation.

The rebel flag you see most often today isn't even the flag of the confederate government. It was a battle standard flag created after numerous confederate troops, disoriented and running from battle kept running right into the Union front lines thinking they were running toward the Confederate flag which look very much like the US flag. So the confederacy couldn't even design a new flag. They just took the US flag and made a minor change.

The confederate flag that people use today to represent their heritage, is anti-American. It is the reality that they tried to leave the united States and become their own nation, and then started a war against the United States. That means they are celebrating a history of terrorism and anti-American violence, which in my book makes them no different than Al-Qaeda.

Rebel Flags = Al-Qaeda

Hi im a confederate and I belong to Confederate party. Heres my view through out history there are moments that define a nation. The CSA may not of had the best condition to begin. The Slave issue was the card it has been the most successful propaganda tool against the South. The time was right and the time is right we face the great dilema of the propaganda machine. I wish in debates people would discuss form of government and right of secession. Sadly the most talked of issue on the anti confederate side was the Souths slavery. I'm going to present one of the easiest ways to understand the South and its fight for indepence.
Lets talk fiction and a couple of years we may face it as a reality. Ill begin the fiction now. The USA joins the world government now all governments are under one government. As time progresses lets say conservatism and the pro life movement gets a majority accross the world. There begins a polotical campaign to end USA's Abortion ending the so called right to kill the unborn. Im not for abortion but as I see it the world government is invading my nations right to self governance of its internal affairs. As time progresses America finds its self in the minority it finds it cannot continue in the World Government if the US did it would end our ability to solve our own problems and be forced to accept whatever the worlds majority did to our nation.
To protect the US government and self determination the US Secedes. The war for US indepence is fought our nation was overwhelmed by the sheer numbers we lose. When ever Americans fly the US Flag they are called baby killers and using this the World government takes more and more of our ability to govern our selves the Government is run by installed puppet leaders who are completly loyal to the World Government.
The World Government puts such high standards for parties that US citizen cant vote for people they want. left only to choose 2 different parties that dont have their interest in heart. To further conquer the US the World Government sets ways to undermine US Culture it encourages mass Loyalist World Government citizens to move to the US we find ourselves losing the majority vote for our own determination underminded by loyalist who move to the US and out number our citizens. Theres a movement for indepence the propaganda used against that movement is misleading history books further rewriting history for the conquerer. US historians are called revisionist and lyars. Abortion is made to seem to be the only reason the US seceded a movement is carried on by loyalist to strip americans of their culture and history.
Now why did the US secede it was self determination for US citizens to decide on our local issues. The World Government loyalist say that would have made abortion last longer. So in their minds destroying america for expiedience of their polotical agendas was worth it. The Loyalist make remarks close to genocidal against Americans.
If you are paying attention then you will find alot of what happened to the South is in the story. Time should not be used as justification for destroying a people and robbing them of their own right to self determine their future. The North being the victor forced public schooling that insured their version was read to the kid first. The history books have been so cut up to fit a northern view of the war alot of time history is replaced with lyes and half truths. Northern immigration and the munipulation of the Black populous has led to a colonial style of control. This control technique is by out populating the Southern nationalist with unionist the Governments stops any majority to form for secession. This technique has also been a suttle way of removing southern culture and making northern culture dominate. The US government has insured that only unionist will come to power in the Confederate states stopping nationalism and curtailing further moves for secession. I remmber northerners talk that the south was so immoral for segregation but I find that odd. Was the Confederate party in control and how much real control did southerners have over their state governments.
They only had two choices republican or democrat so in what way could have they made their state government obey them? In todays election only 2 parties are going to have any chance to win the White house. John MCcain doesnt represent my Conservative Values yet hes the Nominee. I bet if he wins people would say because Im conservative I agree which is wrong. I would say this is what happened to the south during segration they did not have a choice if both candidates were segrationist or if the only conservative you can vote for is segrationist in what way did they have a choice? They had 2 bad choices and the way our system been munipulated the south and everyone in this nation will suffer because the system wont let us pick a third candidate. Sure the south could have voted for the third but it was unlikly anyone would even know the guy they vote for. I wouldnt condem the south for what a party did it wasnt their choice and the reality was there never really much choice to begin with. There is also in this moment in time southern nationalism was rising and State Rights was being talked of in polotics. In my mind the segregationism was used to divide and conquer and further give into propaganda that southerners were racist.
Heres my view on racism it has always been in the minority of whites who support that view. If whites as whole had been racist there would have been a genocide in this country. To me the ones who have been purpetuating racism has been those against it (funny) why is that they make racism into such broad a term literally anything can be considered racist. I want to buy black beans the ones against racism call me racist. Now isnt that absolutly insane and absurd.
Sadly the term racist has been used a political hammer to destroy political opposition. It has been the colonial and imperialist method of attacking Southern Nationalism and Confederatism. Sadly we live in day where education has munipulated facts and has been the propaganda machine of control. School shootings in my opinion has been a political tool to undermine the citizens ability to put fear and remind government the people are armed and can revolt. Its odd and maybe a coincidince but haven't you noticed alot of the school shooters had a fascist ideology also cops arnt going in very odd.
In conclusion the south fought for self determination and the right of its people to decide on their issues. Slavery should be forgotten and only brought up in discussion of slavery. The war for southern independence was eventually brought about with slavery being discussed but to say the Confederacy will never be anti slavery Government is a showing of ignorance and lack of understanding the process of polotics. This is what i see I hope you see it too.