Winds of Change.NET: Liberty. Discovery. Humanity. Victory.



Formal Affiliations

Anti-Idiotarian Manifesto
Euston Democratic Progressive Manifesto
Real Democracy for Iran!
Support Denamrk
Million Voices for Darfur
milblogs
Prev | List | Random | Next | Join
Powered by RingSurf!

e-Syndication

August 23, 2008

Timetables

by Armed Liberal at August 23, 2008 4:22 PM

It looks like an agreement is close between the Iraqi government and the US government on a schedule for ramping down the US military presence in Iraq - a timetable. Many of the antiwar folks who have been pressing for the US government to announce such a timetable have been - to use a charitable term - crowing, including my grudgingly approved candidate, Senator Obama:

"I am glad that the administration has finally shifted to accepting a timetable for the removal of our combat troops from Iraq..."

The difference, of course, is between a timetable that we unilaterally impose regardless of the desires of the Iraqis and the conditions on the ground, and a timetable that is arrived at as a consequence of agreement between our government and the Iraqi one. It seems to me such an obvious thing, and yet no one else seems to be raising it.

Kevin Drum has a good cautionary comment, and links to another good one from Megan McArdle.

From the Las Vegas Sun, here's a nice snapshot of the complex bundle of issues that the war represents in this election:

By 2006, however, as the war continued to rage, the public had lost patience. On Election Day, voters punished Republicans across the country for mismanaging the conflict.

Overjoyed, Democrats believed their time had come to ride the wave. They opened the 2008 campaigns brimming with confidence that the war would propel their candidates into the White House and Congress.

But now, with just 11 weeks remaining in the campaigns, that assumption is being tested.

Interviews with 20 voters this week found the war has evolved into a much more complicated issue than in the past two elections.

Many voters said they think the war was a bad idea, which is consistent with findings of national polls. But with the war no longer front and center in the national consciousness, the interviews suggested the issue is no longer an automatic boost for Democrats.

Instead, the war is at times cutting against stereotype.


TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.windsofchange.net/windsopcentre-cms/trackback.cgi/8058

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference
"Timetables"

Comments
#1 from Sonic Charmer at 7:43 pm on Aug 23, 2008

The logic:

The fact that the surge worked and we can draw down the troop presence now, is proof that we should have drawn down the troop presence long ago and never done the surge.

The fact that the increased dosage worked and I can stop taking the medicine, is proof that I should have stopped taking medicine long ago and never increased the dosage.

#2 from PD Shaw at 8:28 pm on Aug 23, 2008

I believe several times in the comments here I had been asked when the U.S. troops would leave and I responded they would leave when the Iraqi government wants us to leave.

#3 from Marcus Vitruvius at 11:39 pm on Aug 23, 2008

I think I'm going to wait to see the details on this one, before I form any serious opinions. I've been hearing about this wrangling off and on for... a few months, I think.

If the Georgians and Russians hadn't done their dance a few weeks ago, I would have been inclined to accept this as evidence that the US and the Iranians had done a deal under the table, and sufficient assurances had been made by both sides to allow a backing down and a redeployment. I would even have offered as evidence from the Iranian side, the recent statements that al-Sadr would be staying in Iran for several years until he became an accepted marjaa. (Incidentally, I laughed when I read the AP story on that. The news was given to the AP reported by an aide of al-Sadr's, on condition of anonymity. I have to wonder if al-Sadr had heard the news before that news release....)

Now, I'm less certain. The Russian reaction has a lot of states scrambling to get their ducks in a row. The US needs to lock things down, so I can certainly see this as incentive for the US to cut deals less perfect than they would have cut three weeks ago. Anyone weak but fundamentally desiring US alliance or protection is in the same boat, and so we've seen a lot of extremely rapid motion between the US and Poland, and to a lesser degree between the US and India.

I would instinctively put Iraq into that boat, but I'm not yet certain the Iraqis see it that way. And then there is Iran. I would have expected them to get loud, perhaps even consider provoking a Tet-style last ditch offensive, somehow. Certainly the Syrians wasted no time offering to host a Russian missile shield. That they haven't means.... I'm not sure. Maybe that they are fundamentally spent and can't do any more, but I'm very skeptical. Maybe that they're not eager to cozy up to a resurgent Russia? That they've been diddle one too many times on their nuclear reactor programs to believe Putin one last time? That the US in haste cut a deal under the table?

That I'm fundamentally off base in my read of the situation?

Unclear.

At any rate, I will be very interested to see the final details. In particular, I'm interested in what is allowed, and what is required. There is a huge difference between being allowed to keep "tens of thousands" of troops in Iraq and being required to do so. I'll be interested in the renegotiation clauses, as well, and in the basing locations and equipment and numbers.

What I suspect/hope for is that the withdrawl will happen between now and 2011, and that somewhere along the lines of 30,000 to 60,000 will remain indefinitely, depending on the circumstances, and I would hope that at least until 2011, some substantial number of troops there is required. I am a strong believer in the South Korea model for Iraq, with troops there in a non-combat but ultimately strengthening and stabilizing role. The prospects of another Iran-Iraq War seem distant, unless it's a proxy war (which I believe no one actually wants.) The dynamic of US troops in force, semi-permanently but not bogged down in combat roles, might alter the rest of the area, too-- some clever State Department guy can figure out how to use this to keep chipping Syria out of Iran's orbit, perhaps.

And certainly there are better things we can be doing with the other roughly 100,000 men and women deployed there. Like, park them in Poland to defend our shiny new to-be-built missile shield installation.

And finally, in my mind, this can be a plus for both candidates. If the deal looks like it's run on the South Korea model, McCain obviously gets to do some crowing about it, since he's pitched that model publicly. On the other hand, Obama can also breathe a sigh of relief in that a legal agreement between the two powers would effectively take the decision out of his hands, once again presenting him with a fait accompli that he really can't do anything about. I'd be much more likely to vote for him, if I knew he had a treaty-level commitment not to do what he's been promising to do for the last two or three years.

Post a comment

Here are some quick tips for adding simple Textile formatting to your comments, though you can also use proper HTML tags:

*This* puts text in bold.

_This_ puts text in italics.

bq. This "bq." at the beginning of a paragraph, flush with the left hand side and with a space after it, is the code to indent one paragraph of text as a block quote.

To add a live URL, "Text to display":http://windsofchange.net/ (no spaces between) will show up as Text to display. Always use this for links - otherwise you will screw up the columns on our main blog page.

Finally, note that a constant onslaught of Trackback spams from auto-generated blogspot blogs has forced Winds to ban the blogspot.com domain from use in comments or trackbacks. If you host on blogspot, consider moving; otherwise, the complaints need to be directed at Google not us.










Archives By Category
-FEATURES: 48 Ways to Wisdom (24)
-FEATURES: Diaries & Roundups (10)
-FEATURES: Military Transformation Uplink (12)
-FEATURES: New Energy Currents (20)
-FEATURES: Reader Highlights (2)
-FEATURES: Regional Briefings (166)
-FEATURES: Sufi Wisdom (158)
-FEATURES: The Bard's Breath (32)
-FEATURES: Winds of Discovery (6)
-FEATURES: Winds of War [WoT] (445)
4 HA: 4th-Gen Warfare (103)
4 HA: al-Qaeda (159)
4 HA: Crime, Organized (26)
4 HA: Evil Exists (111)
4 HA: Intelligence/Spycraft (100)
4 HA: Military (531)
4 HA: Nukes, Poisons, Germs (136)
4 HA: Statecraft (29)
4 HA: War on Terror articles (708)
Best Of... (180)
BIZ: Business & Organizations (136)
BIZ: Economics (103)
BIZ: Energy (75)
CIVIS (236)
CIVIS: Copyright Wars (25)
CIVIS: Drug Wars (18)
CIVIS: Edu-Kooks (76)
CIVIS: Free Societies (295)
CIVIS: Hall of Shame (163)
CIVIS: Hatred Rising (114)
CIVIS: Journalism & Media (412)
CIVIS: Spirit of America.NET (32)
CIVIS: War Within the West (312)
COLUMNISTS: M. Simon (13)
COLUMNISTS: Tarek Heggy (33)
GEO: Afghanistan (79)
GEO: Africa (104)
GEO: Asia (117)
GEO: Aussies & Kiwis (22)
GEO: Canada (70)
GEO: China (87)
GEO: Europe (183)
GEO: France (71)
GEO: India-Pakistan (113)
GEO: Iran (223)
GEO: Iraq (967)
GEO: Israel (248)
GEO: Koreas (64)
GEO: Latin America (63)
GEO: Middle East (257)
GEO: Russia (83)
GEO: Saudi Arabia (64)
GEO: Sudan (36)
GEO: U.K. (71)
GEO: U.N. (61)
GEO: U.S. of A (506)
HUMANITY (88)
HUMANITY: Art & Culture (161)
HUMANITY: Art - Music (32)
HUMANITY: Art - Poetry (6)
HUMANITY: Christianity (53)
HUMANITY: Heroes & Achievements (232)
HUMANITY: History (126)
HUMANITY: Islam (183)
HUMANITY: Judaism (137)
HUMANITY: Love (32)
HUMANITY: Philosophy (49)
HUMANITY: Spirituality & Religion (74)
HUMANITY: Zen & Buddhism (28)
Humour (199)
Misc. (44)
NET: Blogosphere (397)
NET: Cyber-Security (16)
NET: Grid Computing (3)
NET: Spam (24)
NET: The Internet (39)
NET: The Open Source Meme (18)
Personal (198)
SCI-TECH: Biotech & Medical (84)
SCI-TECH: Eco-tech (82)
SCI-TECH: Nanotech (27)
SCI-TECH: Science (112)
SCI-TECH: Space (75)
SCI-TECH: Technology (146)
SPORTS (45)
SPORTS: Baseball (76)
Trends (66)
USA: America Catch-all (20)
USA: Anti-Americanism (6)
USA: California Politics (16)
USA: Conservatives & GOP (43)
USA: Dem Party Renewal (77)
USA: Domestic Issues (56)
USA: Elections (132)
USA: Grand Strategy (15)
USA: Homeland Security (106)
VictoryPAC (3)
Winds of Change.NET (55)

Archives by Date
Winds Blogroll



Recent Entries

Support Winds of Change.NET!


Your support & assistance is greatly appreciated, and makes a difference!
The Winds Crew:

Town Founder:
Joe Katzman
joe {at} windsofchange. net
Joe's Normblog Interview

Left-Hand Man:
Marc 'Armed Liberal' Danziger
armed {at} windsofchange. net
A.L.'s Normblog Interview

Other Winds Marshals
'AMac', aka. Marshal Festus (AMac@...)
Robin "Straight Shooter" Burk
'Cicero', aka. The Quiet Man (cicero@...)
David Blue (david.blue@...)
'Lewy14', aka. Marshal Leroy (lewy14@...)
'Nortius Maximus', aka. Big Tuna (nortius.maximus@...)

Other Regulars
'Callimachus' (callimachus@...)
'Demosophist' (demosophist@...)
Rev./Maj. Donald Sensing
'Molon Labe' (molon.labe@...)
'Neo Neo-Con'
Tarek Heggy (tarek@...)

Semi-Active:
Arthur Chrenkoff
'Gabriel Gonzalez' (in Paris)
Tim Oren (tim@...)
Trent Telenko (trent@...)

Posting Affiliates
Athena: Terrorism Unveiled
Chester: The Adventures of Chester
Dave Schuler: The Glittering Eye
Grim: Grim's Lair et. al. Joel Gaines [Russia]
Michael Totten
MILblogging.com: The MilBlogs directory
Murdoc [Military]
Situational Awareness team [Military]
Nathan Hamm [Central Asia]
Randy Paul [Latin America]
Robert Koehler [Koreas]
Robi Sen [India & S. Asia]
Nitin Pai [India & S. Asia]
Simon [China & E. Asia]
Yehudit: Kesher Talk

Emeritus:
Adil Farooq (adil@...)
Andrew Olmsted [KIA, Iraq]
Celeste Bilby (celeste@...)
Dan Darling
Gary Farber (gary@...)
Hossein Derakhshan (hoder@...)
T.L. James (tljames@...)
Robin Burk (robin@...)


Winds of Change.NET Blogkids & Affiliates

·
The Argus: covering Central Asia
· Canis Iratus: Glen Wishard
· Correct-Amundo: Tech & society
· Discarded Lies: Ev & Zorkie
· The Flying Kiwi: Donovan Janus
· The Glittering Eye: Dave Schuler
· Gumptionology: Nortius Maximus
· Hot Needle of Inquiry: 'Jinnderella'
· Laughing Wolf: C. Blake Powers
· Out The Mazoo: 'Mazoo'
· Power and Control: M. Simon
· Praktike's Place: 'Praktike'
· Random Probabilities: Robin Burk
· Siberian Light: covering Russia
· The Spirit of Man

· Good News From the Front
· WATCH/: covering the war on terror

Archives By Category
-FEATURES: 48 Ways to Wisdom (24)
-FEATURES: Diaries & Roundups (10)
-FEATURES: Military Transformation Uplink (12)
-FEATURES: New Energy Currents (20)
-FEATURES: Reader Highlights (2)
-FEATURES: Regional Briefings (166)
-FEATURES: Sufi Wisdom (158)
-FEATURES: The Bard's Breath (32)
-FEATURES: Winds of Discovery (6)
-FEATURES: Winds of War [WoT] (445)
4 HA: 4th-Gen Warfare (103)
4 HA: al-Qaeda (159)
4 HA: Crime, Organized (26)
4 HA: Evil Exists (111)
4 HA: Intelligence/Spycraft (100)
4 HA: Military (531)
4 HA: Nukes, Poisons, Germs (136)
4 HA: Statecraft (29)
4 HA: War on Terror articles (708)
Best Of... (180)
BIZ: Business & Organizations (136)
BIZ: Economics (103)
BIZ: Energy (75)
CIVIS (236)
CIVIS: Copyright Wars (25)
CIVIS: Drug Wars (18)
CIVIS: Edu-Kooks (76)
CIVIS: Free Societies (295)
CIVIS: Hall of Shame (163)
CIVIS: Hatred Rising (114)
CIVIS: Journalism & Media (412)
CIVIS: Spirit of America.NET (32)
CIVIS: War Within the West (312)
COLUMNISTS: M. Simon (13)
COLUMNISTS: Tarek Heggy (33)
GEO: Afghanistan (79)
GEO: Africa (104)
GEO: Asia (117)
GEO: Aussies & Kiwis (22)
GEO: Canada (70)
GEO: China (87)
GEO: Europe (183)
GEO: France (71)
GEO: India-Pakistan (113)
GEO: Iran (223)
GEO: Iraq (967)
GEO: Israel (248)
GEO: Koreas (64)
GEO: Latin America (63)
GEO: Middle East (257)
GEO: Russia (83)
GEO: Saudi Arabia (64)
GEO: Sudan (36)
GEO: U.K. (71)
GEO: U.N. (61)
GEO: U.S. of A (506)
HUMANITY (88)
HUMANITY: Art & Culture (161)
HUMANITY: Art - Music (32)
HUMANITY: Art - Poetry (6)
HUMANITY: Christianity (53)
HUMANITY: Heroes & Achievements (232)
HUMANITY: History (126)
HUMANITY: Islam (183)
HUMANITY: Judaism (137)
HUMANITY: Love (32)
HUMANITY: Philosophy (49)
HUMANITY: Spirituality & Religion (74)
HUMANITY: Zen & Buddhism (28)
Humour (199)
Misc. (44)
NET: Blogosphere (397)
NET: Cyber-Security (16)
NET: Grid Computing (3)
NET: Spam (24)
NET: The Internet (39)
NET: The Open Source Meme (18)
Personal (198)
SCI-TECH: Biotech & Medical (84)
SCI-TECH: Eco-tech (82)
SCI-TECH: Nanotech (27)
SCI-TECH: Science (112)
SCI-TECH: Space (75)
SCI-TECH: Technology (146)
SPORTS (45)
SPORTS: Baseball (76)
Trends (66)
USA: America Catch-all (20)
USA: Anti-Americanism (6)
USA: California Politics (16)
USA: Conservatives & GOP (43)
USA: Dem Party Renewal (77)
USA: Domestic Issues (56)
USA: Elections (132)
USA: Grand Strategy (15)
USA: Homeland Security (106)
VictoryPAC (3)
Winds of Change.NET (55)

Archives by Date
Winds Blogroll


Powered by:
LighTTPD web server
Ubuntu Linux
Movable Type
Hosted by Pixelgate