Considering that this is the world's craziest and most brutal regime, the chance that we will have to kill a bunch of people just went up.

I wonder how long before Kim's buddy Hugo decides that he needs nukes to "deter American imperialist agression"?

celebrim: War Nerd reads the tea leaves and has Thuggo Chav far more terrified of his own people than of the US, based on his actions to date. I find this convincing.

Evariste:

Interesting article on Chavez, but I'm not sure what it has to do with a nuke test in Korea. You figure he's testing to dissuade his own skeptics? Those folks don't listen to Voice of America. They've never heard anyone expostulate besides Dear Leader. My guess is that he's afraid of his own peasants, if he's afraid of anyone. And I can't see how a nuke mitigates that. This begins to look like a nihilist convention.

Demosophist-I can see how you'd be confused. It was in reply to celebrim's comment @ #1:

I wonder how long before Kim's buddy Hugo decides that he needs nukes to "deter American imperialist agression"?

I was suggesting to him that per War Nerd's logic, Hugo may prefer to concentrate his efforts elsewhere, and merely cheerlead a nuclear North Korea and a wannabe nuclear Iran.

I sort of figured that out after re-reading the posts. Somehow that modest reassurance doesn't cut it, but I'll take what I can get.

Demosophist-at the moment, Chavez has big problems at home. May they worsen.

Lula, too, is having problems, and he was the South American leftist who seemed the most interested in obtaining a nuclear capability (er, for "energy" purposes, of course).

Heckuva Job, Boltie!

Should make for an interesting hearing if Bush renominates Bolton for U.N. ambassador next year.

And what would suggest Monkei in response to Bolton's actions? Lil Kim cheated from DAY ONE on the Agreed Framework with Clinton. They cheated when Clinton made a deal in 1996, cheated in 2002, and cheated on last year's deal.

Short of nuking the hell out of North Korea (which would be an excellent and life-saving idea, showing that the nuclear club is closed and trying to get into it will get you dead) there wasn't much Bush could do.

You can talk and talk and talk to Saddam, Lil Kim, Chavez, Castro, the murderers in Dafur, Hezbollah and Hamas and so forth. It will get you nothing because the one truth Mao spoke was that POWER GROWS OUT OF THE BARREL OF A GUN.

POWER GROWS OUT OF A BARREL OF A GUN.

Repeat that to yourself. Grow up and face reality.

Japan WILL get nukes, so will Australia, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, and likely Indonesia. In the Gulf and Middle East Iran's nukes program have sent EGYPT to get nukes (Mubarak announced it) and also Saudi. All this proliferation equals an American City being nuked.

WHEN not IF an American City is nuked ... internment becomes a reality (Brit police officials are already talking about it in response to London being nuked) and so does Wretchard's Third Conjecture.

Once a US city is nuked ONLY massive retaliation that kills not thousands, or millions, but hundreds of millions will deter further attacks.

More thoughtful observers have realized the danger, that nukes would be used on a US city and the result would inevitably be global thermonuclear war on the likely culprits. If anything you'd want North Korea nuked to save hundreds of millions of lives.

Or pretend really hard it's 1994 and party time. Your choice.

the chance that we will have to kill a bunch of people just went up.

Over a million Koreans starved to death while Kim built this bomb (using some of our money thanks to King William's brilliant "containment policy") so the chances that a bunch of Koreans will die are always good. But I'm sure we won't do anything that might threaten Google's good relations with China.

Jim:

If you want my personal opinion: don't distribute any more monkey chow.

Have you ever looked seriously at monkey chow? And at what it turns into after a monkey eats it?

That's your payoff. It's a mug's game.

It was a commercial. North Korea established reserves of hard curency for trade with industrially produced drugs, counterfitting, and through organized crime groups like the Chosun Soren in Japan. North Korean money is worthless, and mineral wealth only trades for as long as you have it. So America has been shutting off those avenues with the help of other Asian nations who have suffered because of North Korea's "trade" policies. North Korea, now has one thing left to trade: nuclear material, weapons and technicans. The missile tests were bad because they displayed the short comings of the rocket bodies they were exporting. Who wants a long range missile that lastst 43 seconds from launch? But now their warheads are a proven technology. By word of mouth, North Korea has had nukes since 96. This is their Detroit motor show of military hardware. That is why Hill has said that They can have the weapons or they can have a future. He is saying point blank, that America will actively and overtly subvert the North Korean government within their own borders if they insist on remaining a nuclear power. Frankly, it wouldn't be as hard as you might think.

#8 from Jim Rockford: "Japan WILL get nukes, so will Australia..."

Australia will not go nuclear because of this. Nukes are undesirable in all sorts of ways, such as cost; and they are superfluous as long as the American alliance is strong.

Would anyone in Australian politics like to do to the American alliance what New Zealand did? Yes indeed; and those people won't take Australian defense needs seriously in any case.

Either way: no Aussie nukes.

But Jim, don't you know the real issue is pederasty in congress?

POWER GROWS OUT OF A BARREL OF A GUN.

First a little humor, then a bit more serious. This kind of reminded me of the Frank Gun Control Challenge:

I'm tired of dealing with the convoluted logic of anti-gun nuts, so I have this simple challenge to prove the fallacy of their arguments. In the challenge, they stand on one side and let loose their best anti-gun arguments, while I stand opposite of them and shoot at them with my .45. If any of their tripe can stop my bullet, they win. Otherwise I win. Some may now say, "Hey! That doesn't prove anything!" To which I respond, "I still have more bullets in this gun." Many will continue to think (but no longer voice) that nothing was proven, but some may now say, "Ah ha!" and achieve enlightenment.

I recall quotes from a few 100 years back to the effect that TNT would render wars unthinkable, and thus usher in an unprecedented era of world peace, and one certainly doesn't have to be historically literate (or blind from partisanship) to see how that turned out.
Replace nuclear proliferation with bullets, and the argument still holds up. Tools get used, and the world is not a safer place today. Wretchard posted as much recently, saying that the window of opportunity to prevent the second (utterly catastrophic) conjecture is closing rapidly.