Over the past 4 years, an uncountable deluge of commenters have compared the war we're in, explicitly or implicitly, to Vietnam. The analogy snakes through the war like a main circuit cable, plugged straight into the New Class.
So lately, I've been thinking: What if they're right? And, more recently, "I think they are."
Just not in the way they imagine. Consider...
...what happened during the Vietnam era. Large segments of the public:
- Learned that trusted sources and institutions could be trusted to lie to them regularly, with descriptions of events that deliberately bore little resemblance to reality.
- Lost faith not only in politics, but in many of the institutions once held up as arbiters and exemplars of the best society offered.
- Found themselves enmeshed in a cultural orthodoxy they considered smothering, and were none too pleased with the disciplinary tactics used to enforce it. These tactics, they believed, concealed and excused injustice, interfered with free choice, created unnecessary pain and often led directly to injustice themselves.
- Tuned in to alternative views, and alternative sources for finding them and the issues they reported on.
- All of the above, plus controversial war, mobilized large numbers of people into one side of the political spectrum and strongly shifted others who were already engaged. The intensity of that mobilization set their political templates for years to come.
Fast forward to the current era. Large segments of the public have now:
- Learned that the sources and institutions they trusted (media, NGOs, social activists) can be trusted to deliberately lie to them, and that their descriptions of events often bear little resemblance to reality.
- Are losing faith in many of the institutions once held up as arbiters and exemplars of the best society offered. Media trust numbers are dropping like rocks. The U.N. is a sewer pit whose legitimacy is drowning in the stink. NGOs like Greenpeace, Amnesty International, and the International Red Cross are revealed as less than trustworthy, wasteful - and sometimes outright nefarious in pursuing policies anthithecal to their stated aims. "Toyota Taliban" is the soundbyte that says it all.
- Find themselves enmeshed in a cultural orthodoxy they consider smothering, and are none too pleased with the disciplinary tactics used to enforce "political correctness". PC, they believe, conceals and excuses injustice, interferes with free choice and expression, inflicts unnecessary pain and often leads directly to injustices itself.
- Tune in to alternative views, and alternative sources for finding them and the issues they report on.
- And a controversial war ensures that every one of these fault lines is destined to widen in the coming years.
Hence "9/11 liberals" and "the new Independents" in politics and the commentariat. Hence the blogosphere, which captures this dynamic better than any other medium. Hence "South Park Conservatives."
The current war may indeed be Vietnam redux. The Left erroneously assumes that it will therefore be on the winning side.
I wouldn't be so sure.
UPDATE: Brian Dunn of The Dignified Rant chimes in with another analogy.
Well, this will make a nice break from all the contentiousness and controversy.
The Left erroneously assumes that it will therefore be on the winning side.
I wouldn't worry about them. They still haven't noticed that they lost the last Vietnam War, and dragged Lyndon Johnson, Hubert Humphrey, and the entire Democratic Party down into the quagmire with them.
How many more Pyrrhic victories can they take:
- They've won 3 out of the last 10 presidential elections, including one they probably wish they'd lost. The Democrats, that is - the Left has lost all of them.
- Colossal majorities in the House and Senate ... down the toilet.
- The left-liberal hegemony in journalism and "softcore" academia was once unchallenged. Now they can't use a single inappropriate adjective without catching an artillery barrage.
- The Sexual Revolution ultimately gave them the Feminist Anti-Sex Brigade, and that wasn't the worst of it. Incredibly, drugs turned out to be a bad idea. Even Rock and Roll is dead. No wonder they're thinking about going over to Islam.
- There are about 6 people left in the country who will admit to being Leftists. That's only slightly more than the number who will admit to being Liberals. Even the closet leftists are outnumbered 50 to 1 by NASCAR fans.
The left needs to face it: They are not up to another Vietnam. They are not even up to another Woodstock.
I wish I could agree with you, Joe, but I think it's a bit of a stretch. There's a lot of mistrust and accusations of deliberate lying going around and it's not all going one way. See this site, for example.
I'm afraid this is a “where you sit is where you stand” thing.
The blogs have indeed been helpful in getting the word out about the reality of our military efforts, but I think the ability of soldiers themselves (not just milbloggers) to send frequent updates back home, and have those updates passed along, and along, via e-mail, has been vital.
I served in the Middle East last year and I sent notes back to a long list of friends and family. I was amazed by the number who wrote back saying they did not even watch the news anymore or read the papers because they could get more accurate info from the various notes they were receiving.
I try to publish some of the notes I receive from soldiers serving on my blog, Text to display, and I also try to go after the MSM that so misrepresents the war effort.
Dave Schuler
And with that one link you show how much the left has lost it, how they aint got a clue, and how far off, detached, unhinged, "moonbat!" is the auto-reflex you trigger now, the hyperventaltion, the feminist getting the vapors. I mean.
You should have got a clue when the likes of Christopher Hitchins and Norman Geras, who have not abandoned any of the core values they hold dear, are shooting you full of holes.
You have all gone off into a moonbat BusHitler blind rage, blind and deaf, lost the plot, wrenched the knob, the babe said no and and your right in the middle of committing date rape.
And its gonna be a long time before she (America) opens her door for you again. and thats if you stop now, right now its only the lost buttons on her blouse, if you keep going, things will be even worse for you.
It seems regardless of the war (unless a democrat is in office) the media will continue to bash our troops. And they wonder why America has lost faith in them?
Raymond, you've got a hold of the wrong end of the stick. Those are not my positions or beliefs but the beliefs of others. My point was (and is) that people from different ends of the political spectrum see the events of the last four years very differently.
Raymond,
Please go to Dave's site and read a bit before forming an opinion of where he stands. Might reread what he posted, too.
I've always considered Dave to be rather scrupously fair.
I second Dave Schuller. There is in fact a great deal of mistrust of the MSM on the hard Left – at least some of the plummeting numbers are due to the fact that a segment of the public views the MSM has hopelessly in bed with the corporate, globalist, fascist, jingoist, warmongering “them”.
I was Googling around checking out what’s on the blogs regarding this story and for those who think the political spectrum ends at Nancy Pelosi or even Cynthia McKinney, think again.
Terrabit bandwidth allows people to talk past each other quite quickly.
Dave, I'm sorry, I added a spurious 'l' to your surname. At least I got your point straight. ;)
You cant read what he said any other way, as for the opinions of fools, perhaps the only thing new is the wide spread exposure of the foolishness.
The media cant get away with it any more, but they have not learned to adapt to the new enviroment.
The moonbats too, cant get away with it any more, in the past the leftist media, kept hidden from the public the fact that they are really wacked out fringe nutjobs.
They would parse and select and smooth over the raw reality of those creatures, the likes of Ward Churchhill, his smoother sounding kindred anyway, would be held up as authority figures.
The edit that CBS did to Ken Star, would have had no redress, (they edited his quote to invert what he actually said, CBS LIED, caught red handed) and they have a whole history of it.
But they cant get away with any more.
Climate Change, attention all large reptile levithans .....
I totaly reject the everybody does it crap, everybody dont do it.
We didnt trash the streets assult kids and cops during the DNC convention like they did ours, we didnt shoot guns into their field offices during the election like they did ours, we do NOT have to LIE, like they must, we dont need to hide what we stand for like they must.
When will Kerry sign form 380 ?
Put simply, the truth is on our side here, and if your idiology has objective truth as a core value, well it just makes things so much easier dont it.
A fabric of lies is difficult to maintain, and honesty means you can forget what you said yesterday.
So dave, if I misread your intent, grant me the notion that you might not have left room for otherwise, and that perhaps the iligitamate products of the deranged and agenda-forward oppertunist fools,, we already know what the media agenda is, they are basically moonbats but a bit more polished and skilled at hiding their mental illness.
The media seems to be losing it however, the buttons are all over the seat and they are clawing at her bra, and she has her hand grasping the pistol in her clutch bag.
About the best thing a few democrats can do is hope they dont share the blame and the stain of what the moonbats and the moonbat media are doing to themselves.
Haven't seen a Moby since the election. Tony Foresta and a Moby in one day - I need to dig out my troll book and make a note.
To All,
I'm with Joe.
The difference now is the Internet and the Blogos. We actually won the Vietnam War on the ground whether the ends of the war were just or not. After the Tet Offensive they enemy was broken but we did not have the political will to continue to finish the job. Thanks to the MSM.
Hugh Hewitt is right we are in a transformational period as great as Martin Luther's time and the Protestant Reformation. The elitist aristocracy and the Catholic Church could no longer control, filter, and interpret the the info/news of the day. The people were able for the first time to see the source documents and judge for themsleves what they wished to believe. The MSM is in a similar position. The MSM is no longer relevant.
The Internet and the Blogos now have the capability to bring this message to the American people that the MSM is refusing to cover. See how you can help at Dr. Zin's site:
www.regimechangeiran.com
and also see these other threads at:
RLS Link,Dr. Zin and Here
Here is something from a Marine Officer quoted at Belmont Club
Intel, particularly in the counterinsurgency ops (COIN) as you know drives the operations -- operations develops more Intel - and we get the 'perfect circle' that lets us continue aggressive action...see we did learn from our VN-veteran Marines!! Remember, I started this journey in '73 so all y'all were the guys that taught me how to do this -- I owe ya!
So yes. It is Vietnam all over again for the Marines.
Glenn,
Drugs are a bad idea only if you don't understand them.
For instance they are very helpful for people with PTSD problems - like returning soldiers. It was the returning soldiers who drove the "drug revolution".
Now for most people PTSD is not a permanent problem. The pain/fear memories die out in a year or so even from intense trauma. Which is why the post war heoin epidemic died out.
What you are left with is those whose genetics make the pain/fear last longer. Some for a lifetime.
Now a days the biggest cause of PTSD is child abuse. Of course people driven by pain/fear tend to make bad decisions. We would be much better off letting them have the drugs they need. At the least it would reduce the pain/fear and at best it might make those with the problem more apathetic voters.
Is THE LEFT stealing our bodily fluids?
Yes, they do, and they basically show you how far out, way out there, what deranged wackjobs they are.
The media does them a favor, hides their revolting antics, skips over their most idiotic moments, polishes them up to make them more presentable.
What would happen if the media had played the AL Gore "I have a scream" speach for all America to see ?
Instead the media hides it, sure we here it thru talk radio... but if Bush had done a scream like that, any republican for that matter.
They couldnt even get away with calling a house member a communist, after that the member commented on had said he was a communist, loved stalin and said Mr Walton of Walmart should be exterminated along with his family as "ememies of the people".
Look what the media at the McCarthy hearing.
The single most telling aspect of the campaign against Senator McCarthy is the often shown exchange between him and attorney Joseph Welch at the Army-McCarthy hearings.
How often have we heard Welch’s words, “Let us not assassinate the lad further, Senator. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last?” Followed by Senator McCarthy blabbering like a kid caught cold with his hand in the cookie jar. Surely this is documented film evidence of the evil Senator. Or was it?
It seems that some careful editing and omissions of context created this image. In fact the perplexed Senator immediately shot back that if, “I say anything that is not the truth, then I would like to know about.” Maybe not smooth speech but hardly babbling.
What is also omitted is the truly indecent way Welch had been baiting McCarthy with all that day, constantly demanding he name names and implying he couldn’t.
When McCarthy finally succumbed and mentioned a member of Mr. Welch’s own law firm, Fred Fisher, was a member of an organization termed by the Democrat Attorney General as, “the legal bulwark of the Communist Party,” Welch went into his aggrieved theatrics.
Okay, but was it bad for McCarthy to ‘out’ Fisher even if baited by Welch? Well, it might have been if untrue and if Welch had not confirmed to the New York Times two months previous that Fisher had been relieved as his second assistant because of his membership in an organization that was, “the legal mouthpiece of the Communist Party”!
So not only was Fischer ‘Red’, Welch knew that he was and publicly acknowledged that fact two months before.
And im pushing two points, the leftist propaganda from our media isnt new,
(the rise of the right is because we overcame the leftist propaganda, we have more to do, lots more, but never the less)
And that much of the left is so far wacked out, that they cant see their media helpers toning down leftist bulls... to a level where the mormals might buy it ......
There is a reason why full strength moonbat shows like "democracy now" are better kept hidden from the public. lest they find out what twisted creatures they are.
Lewy If the left got what they wanted, and the soft leftist Lamesteam media suddenly presented everything to their liking to a T, how do you think the public would react to such a display?
Its kinda funny that the hard left is so wacked they dont know who their friends are, almost as funny as those in the media that thinks this is proof of their centrisim.
But thats like saying the Red Kihmers make the VietMihn, Stalin Mao and Castro into centrists, or even old Trotskis Like Geras and Hitchins Centrists.
Which is saying something, since the media is demonstratibly, on this issue, to the left of Geras and Hitchens.
Wow, should be the proper reaction.
So lewy, I just dont see the left wingnuts as a significant datapoint, or consider their opinions of much value except as proof of leftist dimentia.
The fact that manay in the media do, just serves to make the media look worse. and stengthens the case for mental dysfunction against them.
I dont know what you could call this malady, except to note that its going beyond the realm of the sane.
Christopher Hitchens
I agree with Hitchins, it is insane, totally batty, off the rails, a brick shy, sureal and alien.
Their arguments are dullard when they arent perverse, sideways when they arent backward.
What room is there for the sane? and look at Europe, has the whole f..ing world going mad?
Course, over there the people are immersed in leftist propaganda as bad as the insides of a palistine Madrrassa.
I read up history about what happened inside NAZI Germany and the USSR and the Red Kihmers.
Now we are getting a lesson first hand and live of the kind of thing that happened then,,, what is driving the world mad we see in our own media, one can only hope America, and the world, dont follow where they will lead us.
In the USA, things are looking better, the sheepskin keeps slipping off the wolf and the public is noticing. One can only hope things get better across the pond before the Germans and the French sign nonagression pacts with North Korea, China and Iran and target us with nukes.
Hell if it is a cute willing leftist I'd GIVE her mine.
The US won tet in Vietnam just like the USSR won Afganistan in 82/83. The Sovjets had won it but the USA gave a little support ($1 billion) and that was enough for the Afgan's to go on. This that made sure that the USSR couldn't win Afganistan and led to them admitting defeat in 89.
The same is true of the Vietnam war. The US simply couldn't win as long as the USSR or China gave support. And it was unlikely that both would stop because it cost the US a lot more to stay in Vietnam compared with the relative modest cost of their support.
ps. Why don't you claim that Germany could have won WWI as it is closer to the truth. They had a change of 1 in 100000 to win it
And Joe
that came out too long, that whole McCarthy section can be replaced with this link
It would make that monster far less ugly.
Obesity is not always apparent to me inside the edit box, sorry.
Raymond, why don't you compare Saddam with prime minister Jaafari as the pm has more power than the president. Are you still so sure that everybody likes him, a Shiite fundamentalist, more than Saddam.
You also use the false argument of comparing the invasion with doing nothing as there were a lot of other options open. Besides it is with hinsight clear that the invasion was a bad idea
Raymond,
You need to get with Glenn Wishard and get him straight.
McCarthy was a heroin junky supplied by the BNDD the predacessor of the DEA. Perhaps that was why he was slow on the comebacks. Either too much junk or not enough.
He was supplied by the BNDD to prevent his drug use from being used to blackmail him.
And then there was one of his attnys. Roy Cohen. An anti-gay gay guy. (Seems to be quite a popular Republican trait even unto this day).
The Republicans have a lot of answers. They do not have all of them.
pratike: Is THE LEFT stealing our bodily fluids?
If we hadn't invented the anti-theft security strip, the left would definitely be stealing Bodily Fluids. All the Ani DiFranco would be gone, too.
The Sixties are over, boys and girls. Time to pay up.
The “blogosphere” does not belong to “us” – this isn’t manifesto, it is a fact. There is a big chunk of folks out there who for various reasons (some of which I disagree with honorably, some of which are out and out treasonous). I’ll go even further and forward this conjecture: that the NYT story on the CIA flights was motivated and driven by bloggers and activists who have been working on “outing” this operation for months. There once was a time when executives could decide if this kind of info would be made public – no longer. Yes, some of the story to the NYT was provided by anonymous sources – but much of it was already out in the blogosphere. The NYT might have run this story to shore up their credibility on the left .
Glenn Reynolds is working on a new book on actual news reporting by bloggers – “An Army of Davids”. The thing is that all the slings aren’t going to be aimed in the same direction and I maintain that we ignore this at our peril.
a,
A lot of Americans would disagree with you about Iraq being a bad idea.
Bush won convincingly. Republicans gained in the House and Senate.
From the American point of view the Iraq war seemed like a good idea even before the Iraqis gave the Euros the purple finger.
Joe,
I think that it's Vietnam redux only in the leftie's playbook. They've been intellectually moribund for so long that they don't recognize just how much has changed in 35 years. In '69 when Comrade Uncle Walty tied on his red bandana and declared the US victory during Tet a defeat and the war lost, his comrades at the NYT and al-WaPo Group started the agitprop campaign that led to the political defeat. But in '69 there were three networks and the lead stories of the day were determined by what appeared above the fold in the NYT and WaPo. Comrade Cronkite generally carried a higher trust rating than the President.
Today, the same type of comrades in the same institutions are rerunning Comrade Uncle Walty's plays but their universe has been chopped to pieces. Cable news, talk radio and now the new media have reduced trust in "journalists" to the position it deserves - sometimes a little higher than a used car salesman but mostly lower - about on par with a pol.
I agree completely with your optimistic outlook regarding the outcome but I don't see this as Vietnam redux with a side swap at all. This is something new and the equation has changed forever. Victory will come more quickly if we reject the lefties attemps to call a spade an implement of inherent unfairness exploitatively forced upon the masses to be used in the rape of natural resources.
Sedition has a precise meaning and we should not hesitate to use it when circumstances warrant.
In addition a with Iraq as a catalyst we have a tremendous change in Lebanon. We have women getting the vote all over the ME.
Of course if the anti-fascist gain power in the ME it will be bad for the Euros who still support them.
And then there is the biggest prize of all. Iran where the Euros are sucking up to the mullahs. If they get overthrown the people who will form a new government will be at least moderate on the Israel question and very pro-American.
So I can see why from the Euro perspective Iraq was a very bad idea.
BTW do you know what is heling move the Iranian electorate? Blogs and other internet media.
The end result of this war looks a lot like what is left after the fall of the USSR. A LOT of pro Americans in another region of the world.
It has got to be disheartening.
I feel yer pain. Really I do.
They sure dont, but I dont think the authoritarian wing of the party is the future, I think the Larry Elder, South Park, Freedomist ... "pragmatarians" are. A strange bunch we are, we sound quite idiological, but have no affection for idilogy, Lots of Christians, who get along fine with, and often look like paegans, the marketing suits find us a tough sell, we dont fall for the crap, we are both optimistic about the future while sounding like a terminal cynic, we make skepticism an art form, we impress Bob Dobs with our generosity of slack, but we often pack a gun. ... and ohh we think socialism sucks.
Let the fur fly. Im all for a dawinistic meritocracy. Let the truth out, and let the chips fall. We have the adtvantage of the ability to be honest with our message, to say what we intend, no hidden agendas are needed.
Its an eviable position, so good for us and tough for them. Besides, ruthlessly tested ideas will be superior.
Open source politics, what gave us a superior Linux Kernal and userspace, the same openess and transparency is good for the republic.
They have to lie and invent, we dont, if you have to, its a good indicator something is wrong, time to pause, and reflect.... Suits me just fine, those that dont like those rules should not be in the game, and lord willing this open information flow will filter out the bad actors.
Martin Luther and Ginsberg all over again ?
Im all for that.
Ah, yes, the Ginsberg Bible. Foundation of the Reformation, I believe.
I gain a little insight in knowing no free system will evev have complete unity and war will magnify differences of opinion and negate any truth and justice that interfers with it's prosecution. Consider history and how other cultures have farred during great turmoil, fear and doubt. We survived the stronger in spite of multiculturalism and diversity yet seeds were sown for our next social upheaval.
DW
I gain a little insight in knowing no free system will evev have complete unity and war will magnify differences of opinion and negate any truth and justice that interfers with it's prosecution. Consider history and how other cultures have farred during great turmoil, fear and doubt. We survived the stronger in spite of multiculturalism and diversity yet seeds were sown for our next social upheaval.
DW
Ohh. and Simon ...
You want me to pick a fight with that snarling 282 pound English Mastiff with a 38-inch neck?
Its far safer to pick fights with weakbrained logic impaired leftist pussies.
Not that I dont think we have a good argument, but you have to live long enough to present it.
Glens on our side on most everything anyway, so lets not piss off the dragons bears and other such beasts of large tooth and claw that share our cave eh ?
"a,
A lot of Americans would disagree with you about Iraq being a bad idea."
A lot, but a minority, would disagree."57% say war a mistake, 41% disagree":http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20050504/1a_bottomstrip04.art.htm
The idea that the blogosphere inherently leans right is pure wishful thinking. The free flow of digital information has done plenty to reduce the nearly non-existent credibility of the neo-cons. Like King Canute trying to command the tide to stop rising, Rumsfeld has tried to ban the use of digital imaging devices in the services.
From the BBC,
"Mr Rumsfeld was indignant at the publication of such images: "We're functioning with peacetime constraints, with legal requirements, in a wartime situation in the Information Age, where people are running around with digital cameras and taking these unbelievable photographs and then passing them off, against the law, to the media, to our surprise."
However, he admitted that he had not realised the seriousness of the allegations until the pictures were leaked to the media.
The internet has been acting as an unofficial clearing-house for all sorts of unapproved images of conflict in Iraq."
Vietnam was an unimportant battle in an important war. This is an important battle in an unimportant war. Problem is that the US has already lost it and it will be forced to leave the Middle East just as the Russians had to leave Eastern Europe.
A lot of Americans would disagree with you about Iraq being a bad idea.
Admitting that your country did something wrong is very difficult so it is not surprising that a lot of Americans disagree but that doesn't mean that it wasn't a bad idea.
"Problem is that the US has already lost it and it will be forced to leave the Middle East just as the Russians had to leave Eastern Europe. "
Mmm hmm.
"Iraq's foreign minister said he's concerned the United States may pull out of the country before the army and police are ready to take responsibility for the nation's security"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050601/ap_on_re_mi_ea/un_iraq
Joe,
I have had a pretty negative view of the MSM for decades. I only formed a very negative view of the Bush Administration in the aftermath of the Iraq invasion. They lied about their intelligence. They applied pressure to intelligence analysts to come up with the answers they wanted to hear.
They didn't foresee an insurgency. The fool Wolfowitz predicted 30,000 troops in Iraq by the end of 2003. Bush ignored US Army Chief of Staff Gen. Eric Shinseki (actually Shinseki was silenced) and the Rand Corp guys who said 1 soldier is needed per 50 occupied civilians. Bush is pretending he has enough troops because he doesn't want to pay the political price of scaling up the US military. He's all about managing his popularity in the short term at the expense of the nation.
As David Hackworth pointed out just a few months before his death the Bush Administration is now lying about how well Iraqization (patterned after Vietnamization) is going.
I come at Bush from the Right. I see him as a liar and an incompetent. He's done grievous damage to American's interests. So, yeah, its Vietnam all over again.
BTW, what about the plunging enlistments? I don't see how even current troop levels can be maintained in Iraq without draining lots of other stuff.
#35 The translation to what he said was: "We need time to build up our army after which we will kick you out"
Not only is A a translator he's also a mind reader. Sign him up for the Pentagon. My only question is, what is the Iraqi administration this week? An American puppet, or an Iranian puppet? Or Chalabis puppet? Or Chalabis Iranian puppet who is going to screw America by pretending to be there puppet? Or Talabi's puppet running an Iraqi puppet government for America? Or An Iraqi puppet government being run as a puppet by Talabi who actually works for Chalabi who is going to overthrow the Iranian puppet government in Iran and create an all Chalabi puppet supper state known as Iraq-ranChalibistan?
I just cant keep up with exactly how this is all going so horribly wrong.
Raymond: Careful not to slip in all your slathering slobber pools on the floor. Maybe you should invest in a droolcup?
I just cant keep up with exactly how this is all going so horribly wrong.
Maybe you should go to Iraq, work on radio towers or something, and see for yourself how well it's all going. No hiding out in the greenzone allowed, though.
a,
I have changed my mind and politics a number of times in my life based on new understandings.
I was a Communist in my youth. So what you say may be correct for some. It is not true for me.
By 1975 America was (mostly) gone from Vietnam. When the North sent divisions South the American Congress refused to significantly aid the South. At the time I thought that refusal was a good idea. Today I think it was a mistake. So you see I can change my mind.
By 2001 I was a hard core Libertarian. 9/11 and the Party's reaction to it made me leave the Party. So there is another significant change.
I can understand why you as a Eurabian think the war is lost. Islamic fascism has strong allies in the halls of European power.
Europe bowing down to fascism is nothing new. In fact your sentiment that the war was lost for the anti-fascist powers is not a new sentiment in Europe. By the end of 1940 such belief was common in Europe not to mention around the world. Things did look quite bleak. England stood alone.
America is quite willing to stand alone in this war. It does not mean we have lost.
Iran is the next big prize (Syria is declining rapidly as a ME power). America looks to be well on the way to defeating Iran from the inside. The war does not at all look lost to Americans.
Once Iran is a different country look to serious pressure being put on the Sauds.
In Nov of 2004 America decided on at least four more years of war. I think it is wishful thinking to count usout so early in the game. We stood against the Soviets for 40+ years at great expense. This war is cheap in lives and dollars compared to that war.
I would echo one of our most famous Captains: We have not yet begun to fight.
BTW please explain why we are doing well in Afghanistan compared to the Soviets. It ought to be an interesting exposition.
There are many differences between this war and WW2. One thing that is not different is the mind set of our enemies. Then it was Deutchland uber alles. Now it is Islam uber alles. You can roll over if you like (seems a habit in Europe). I do not think America will. The common thread seems to be for Islam and the Nazis that the Jews are at fault. Now there is a surprise.
Except that there is a direct connection from Hitler to the Mufti of Jerusalem to Yasser Arafat to the current Holocaust denyer running Palestine. You can look it up.
Hitler had Islamic Divisions aiding in the final solution.
The current support from Europe for those currently carrying the old hatreds is no surprise to many Americans. We see it as a reversion to form. And why not. There is a direct historical connection.
Mein Kampf is very popular in Islamic countries. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion has been made into popular TV shows in many Islamic countries. No wonder there is a European affinity and American antipathy for them.
I don't see America giving in to this crap. I do see the European elites embracing those who spread it. Thus a very large segment of America sees Europe as the enemy. It would be better to have you as friends, but it is you who will have to change. For Europe it is realpolitik. For America it is a moral question.
And you know Americans are more than willing to fight and die for moral questions. Such an attitude saved Europe once. It may well save Europe again.
WE shall see.
Randall Parker,
An army of 1 soldier per 50 civilians implies an Army of 500,000. I do not think the American occupying army will have to be that large because the current plan is for the Iraqis to occupy themselves.
No WMDs? Bad intel? Pressure to change intel estimates? Nothing new. Read the history of Market Garden in WW2.
Besides if you read Bush's speechs democracy in Iraq was one of our objectives. That little project is moving forward smartly (well as smarly as democracy can). In fact the democracy dominoes are falling all over the ME. Except they are falling our way.
There is nothing new about sunshine soldiers.
So you changed your mind because big bad mistakes were made? Welcome to war. Perseverance furthers.
M. Simon,
The Iraqi Army is lousy. The head of police in Basra says he can trust only 25% of this police and the police officers are carrying out assassinations for militias that rule the city. Corrupt is rife just as it is in the rest of the country. Basra is deep in the Shia heartland. In Tal Afar the Shias and Sunnis are engaged in civil war.
The Iraqi idea of self rule doesn't appear to be working.
One of Bush's objectives was to stop WMD development. Well, on that score invasion of Iraq was a waste of time.
I don't see Middle Eastern dominoes falling toward democracy. If they get democracy in a few countries I do not expect the democracies will be liberal. The recent elections for some Saudi municipal governments swept Islamists into power while business interests and more moderate candidates all lost.
This war is cheap in lives and dollars compared to that war.
It isn't in Faith and Lies. A day in Iraq costs nmore on that scale than 40 years of Germany
please explain why we are doing well in Afghanistan compared to the Soviets
No occupation, i don't mean that you are asked to be there, because the Sovjets were too, but that there are almost no American troops there
The Iraqi Army is lousy.
They defeated Iran, the Iraqi army isn't lousy but they just don't want to fight for you. That is something completely different.
I don't see Middle Eastern dominoes falling toward democracy.
A democratic Middle East will be more anti Israel, anti American and for high oil than it is now. I don't see why we would want a Middle East that is democratic
Again, "a", your knowledge of history is sadly lacking. On several counts. It is simply silly to claim that the "lies" told about the Iraq War are in any way historically unique. Frankly, from a historical perspective, the war was probably the most honestly sold - even given your distorted opinion of what were "lies".
I'm not talking about the way the war was sold but the daily lies that everything is going allright. That the US is not torturing etc.
The Iraqi war was sold as a cheap and easy war which would bring the Iraqi oil into American hands. They used the chemical weapons Iraq had as an excuse because nobody really cared about Iraq having chemical weapons. They also told obvious lies about Iraq having a big nuclear program but the only people who believed that were the people who wanted to invade Iraq anyway so is a lie really a lie is everybody knows that it is a lie.
Ya know, a., that might mean more if it wasn't coming from someone whose preferred solution to Islamic terrorism was, and I quote "accept defeat and just leave the Middle East before you are more hated than Israel."
You can't call what is happening in Iraq Islamic terrorism. They are insurgents to get freedom. Not the kind of freedom i want to live under but i'm not an Iraqi so who cares.
Well,, for somebody that dont care ....
Heh
Afgan is down the memeory hole for the left, Iran will be too in a few years.
Not that all the hyperventing wasnt usefull
Usefull to show the nature of the left to America
Which, is the only effect of all the froth and spit and thrashing about with the vapors.
"a", now you are inventing complete nonsense. To claim that the "insurgents" want freedom is the most despicable of many despicable claims you've made.
They want the freedom to do what they want (which is cutting lots of heads and hands). It is not my preffered freedom but it is their country and not mine so they can decide what they want.
They also don't want to be ruled by foreigners and what is more freedom than not being ruled by foreigners
Yup .. Kim Jong.. he be a free man ...
course .. in a's world his kids are tiger food
as he runs out to by a book to "understand" islam
He is a free man, it is the rest of North Korea that isn't
And, depsite the fact i didnt think you would fall for it, exposes how absurd your other examples of freedom are.
If i was to accept your notion of freedom, that all the accustions agaist the us become moot.
We could even point to the days of chattle slavery, those plantation owners were free, and the poor southern people of all races, shut out of jobs by slaves, well at least they wasnt slaves, and bound servants, why we end that ? and the british colonies, bzzt goes any room to opppose them, after all they didnt inprison the population and made lots of them rich, educated them and brought western learning and technology, they sure felt free, and created jobs that raised the standard of living, all together generally, for litterally a billion+ people.
Once you deny the right of the individual as a measure of "freedom" then the entire history of man going back past rome, past babylon, is placed beyond such value judgments.
This is typical for the left, their assertions cancel their own claim.
Un every case where the left point the finger, they do not propose abolshing the object of their ire, but exchanging it for another.